God: Is it all derived from brain chemistry?

[Nutsack]

THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DRUGS.

I was reading about the drug DMT, and it's chemical effects on the brain, when I come across this section:

2. The sensation of seeing aliens, elves, or being in the presence of God(s) is not unique to DMT users. Otherwise sane people who have never tried DMT report these sensations all the time, and it is generally treated as a sign of psychosis. However, recent research has shown that by stimulating parts of the temporal lobe you can reliably reproduce the feeling of being in the presence of God (also known as "seeing the light" or having a "religious epiphany"). It is an innate human sensation (just like the feeling that "I'm being watched" is an innate human sensation) we just don't catalog it as such because it is relatively rare, happening perhaps only once in a lifetime to those who do not artificially stimulate themselves, perhaps never in a lifetime. Some people have very dramatic religious epiphanies with angels and demons and all form of cherubim marching through with horns and such with no drugs whatsoever, and though it is a common event we generally treat it as a psychological abberation (though back in the day it was the stuff prophets were made of). Since this kind of religious vision phenomena is something our brains can already do on their own, the fact that a substance like DMT can reproduce this phenomena is not much of a stretch.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/Pickover/pc/dmt.html Link is very irrelevant to this thread. Not a very reliable source indeed, but thats why I posted it here, for you guys to judge.

Is it possible that the reason that many religious people feel so "connected" to God, have experienced "talking" to God, felt a connection to him or felt his presence, is all because of a few chemical reactions in the brain?

If this is the case, according to evolution we must have evolved to specifically "feel the presence of" God. This means that "feeling the presence" of a higher being (God), has been favored for in natural selection.

This could be justification for many peoples belief in religion. Simply because their brain tells them that God is present!

SO, what DMT does is basically it stimulates these lobes that has to deal with religion. Many DMT users report feeling the presence of God(s) during a trip.

Does this perhaps mean that other animals may have religious experiences as well? If they have the same brain function.

This could perhaps mean that people have completely different experiences from religion. And the main reason why I'm atheist perhaps is because I've never had the brain chemistry occur in me that will make me feel connected to God(s).

[The Dude]

Very interesting stuff Not much to say about it other than that. It could very well be true. Of course this will be terribly insulting to people who claim to have felt god because this is a direct attack on their credibility.

[basics]

" Is it possible that the reason that many religious people feel so "connected" to God, have experienced "talking" to God, felt a connection to him or felt his presence, is all because of a few chemical reactions in the brain?

If this is the case, according to evolution we must have evolved to specifically "feel the presence of" God. This means that "feeling the presence" of a higher being (God), has been favored for in natural selection."

Nutsack,

Like most humans you put the cart before the horse. In this case God as a result of brain action and not brain activity as a result of God's action when He created man.

It has got nothing to do with evolution and for the life of me I cannot see how it could. In fact evolution is also a result of the creation and not the other way round, but I guess it's all part of God's exactitude when He set men at odds with Himself by the fall.

Opposition to God is so complete that it is natural to consider what man feels and not how God made things to be. Cannot you understand that was so, so that He as Saviour could come to this planet that many never knowing God could join Him where He abides?

For sure many religions when exposed see Him as a figment of the imagination rather than who He really is and this is seen by their own activities both in action and belief, most of whom have very little. They are in awe of Darwin, happy to change what God has laid down in their popularity quest to retain some followers.

So consider that Adam and Eve's brains were clouded by a veil until they fell and then the veil was lifted to expose them to things as of yet unknown. Just so the fallen and/or blind when God lays His hand on them in the act of regeneration. Then all that was of their natures is taken away, as if veiled, to reveal a new nature quite different.

Their bodies remain outwardly the same, yet their brains thinks differently, their nature completely changed as experience will tell as time begins again for them. What was by nature their friend is by their new nature their enemy. Where in all that has evolution the capacity to enact such a change? It hasn't and never had since in reality it only exists in the imagination of man.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Religious experiences can be induced chemicaly and physicaly. And apparently some people are more susceptible to it than others. There are some great experiments on this

[Gaidin]

Welcome to science. BTW, atheists get their religious epiphanies as well when they figure out something really frackin' cool. It's a fun experience. ^_^

[Chaigidel]

there are also experiments which prove electromagnetic fields can excite areas of the brain in a similar manner to DMT; DMT is also released by the brain upon death; and is a very hard to obtain hallucinogen.

I am a theist; and I probably understand science better than the atheists on this forum; if it happens in your brain it stands to reason that there are chemicals and energies involved in it; otherwise it could not happen.

its not insulting at all; I dont think you realize the implications.

organic life develops according to enviroment, so what would lead this organism to develop sensitivity to electromagnetic field alterations and relate them to god experiences?-- it is not just a happy side effect; it is a direct result of the energetic pressures on our development, we know information can be stored and coded within energy transfer and organic life forms; the reason your brain responds is because it was built to respond, to something outside of itself. There is only one mind, and one god; you simply share in its essence, providing your awareness.

[C-Rob]

God gave us those lobes and chemicals specifically so we could be awed by his awsomeness at his(and with drugs, our) will.

*gets ready for bashing*

[Taiji]

Is it possible that the reason that many religious people feel so "connected" to God, have experienced "talking" to God, felt a connection to him or felt his presence, is all because of a few chemical reactions in the brain?

Yes.

If this is the case, according to evolution we must have evolved to specifically "feel the presence of" God. This means that "feeling the presence" of a higher being (God), has been favored for in natural selection.

I don't agree that if our evolved dmt makes 'religious' experience possible then that means this is it's evolutionary function.

This could be justification for many peoples belief in religion. Simply because their brain tells them that God is present!

SO, what DMT does is basically it stimulates these lobes that has to deal with religion. Many DMT users report feeling the presence of God(s) during a trip.

Does this perhaps mean that other animals may have religious experiences as well? If they have the same brain function.

If they have the exact same brain function they are human. It strikes me as likely that if DMT is a factor in some religious experiences then this doesn't mean it is needed in order to have one. So regardless of whether there is DMT or not you may still be able to have a religious experience. Though perhaps if you are, for example, a sheep then maybe you should find some other way of looking at things rather than taking on the human concept of religion and develop your own sheep response.

This could perhaps mean that people have completely different experiences from religion. And the main reason why I'm atheist perhaps is because I've never had the brain chemistry occur in me that will make me feel connected to God(s).

Everybody does there own version of the religion they ascribe to and I'm sure all of them have different experiences. As to why you're an atheist, probably if you asked yourself, you'd get a better answer than a theory about DMT could ever give you.

[Kiljan Arslan]

is it not possible god gave them to us so that we would know of god?

[motiv-8]

Right, KA. None of this precludes the existence of God, for all the though-provoking theories it induces.

Religious experiences can be induced chemicaly and physicaly

Not so fast... a physiological reaction can be induced chemically and physically, but there does not have to be anything religious about it. Ibn Rushd, Ibn Tufayl, and Buddha have best described the true 'religious experience' as coming about as immense focus on the intellect and perception. These don't have anything to do with drugs.

Regardless, what constitutes a 'religous experience' or 'epiphany' is so highly subjective that it's next to impossible to classify in regular scientific research.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Right, KA. None of this precludes the existence of God, for all the though-provoking theories it induces.


Not so fast... a physiological reaction can be induced chemically and physically, but there does not have to be anything religious about it. Ibn Rushd, Ibn Tufayl, and Buddha have best described the true 'religious experience' as coming about as immense focus on the intellect and perception. These don't have anything to do with drugs.

Regardless, what constitutes a 'religous experience' or 'epiphany' is so highly subjective that it's next to impossible to classify in regular scientific research.

Hmmm, feeling and describing a presence that "emanates goodwill", seeing dead relatives and "feel" their intentions after being locked in a sense deprivation chamber. These were some of the described results. The project directors labelled these as religious type experiences. How would you classify them?

[Musthavename]

If this is the case, according to evolution we must have evolved to specifically "feel the presence of" God. This means that "feeling the presence" of a higher being (God), has been favored for in natural selection."

No it doesn't. There's no reason why someone who would "feel the presence of" God would be more likely to survive and pass it on than someone who didn't. Case point being, there must be some other function that this area of a brain gives other than that which meant it developed.

[C-Rob]

No it doesn't. There's no reason why someone who would "feel the presence of" God would be more likely to survive and pass it on than someone who didn't. Case point being, there must be some other function that this area of a brain gives other than that which meant it developed.

... Being saved by God isn't a trait that would make you more likely to survive? It would affect it a little, I would think. Just a smidgen?

[Gaidin]

... Being saved by God isn't a trait that would make you more likely to survive? It would affect it a little, I would think. Just a smidgen?

Given that being saved by god has everythign to do with what is generally termed the 'afterlife'(and for good reason) and has nothing to do with the current life that evolution discusses; being saved by god, and any chemical firings in the brain associated with it, has absolutely nothing to do with survival.

[C-Rob]

Given that being saved by god has everythign to do with what is generally termed the 'afterlife'(and for good reason) and has nothing to do with the current life that evolution discusses; being saved by god, and any chemical firings in the brain associated with it, has absolutely nothing to do with survival.

Say that to Jonah.

Saul maybe?

[Gaidin]

Say that to Jonah.

Saul maybe?

Prove that such events occurred.

[Nutsack]

Given that being saved by god has everythign to do with what is generally termed the 'afterlife'(and for good reason) and has nothing to do with the current life that evolution discusses; being saved by god, and any chemical firings in the brain associated with it, has absolutely nothing to do with survival.

Not much, but someone who is religiouss may act differently when posed with certain difficulties or challenges. A different mental mindset has a huge effect on what decisions a person makes.

[motiv-8]

... Being saved by God isn't a trait that would make you more likely to survive? It would affect it a little, I would think. Just a smidgen?

There was a long period of time in which say anything about God would get you killed, actually.

And if you look at the history of the Israelites, that whole episode doesn't jive very well with your argument either.

[Chaigidel]

that moment of truth could well be reflected in the designs of early society-- one man gets convincingly god struck and the others take bizarre customs to heart to appease unseen gods; it also happens to work ( maybe just by happy circumstance)--but there are definitely benefits to spirituality among humans--- and it did likely orginate with the consumption of mind altering substances.

[Nutsack]

that moment of truth could well be reflected in the designs of early society-- one man gets convincingly god struck and the others take bizarre customs to heart to appease unseen gods; it also happens to work ( maybe just by happy circumstance)--but there are definitely benefits to spirituality among humans--- and it did likely orginate with the consumption of mind altering substances.

I agree, but I doubt mind-altering substances shaped man's brain to allow for religious experiences. I think it was the other way around.

What I think DMT does is it abuses the part of the brain which allows for these religious epiphanies. It stimulates it.

" Is it possible that the reason that many religious people feel so "connected" to God, have experienced "talking" to God, felt a connection to him or felt his presence, is all because of a few chemical reactions in the brain?

If this is the case, according to evolution we must have evolved to specifically "feel the presence of" God. This means that "feeling the presence" of a higher being (God), has been favored for in natural selection."

Nutsack,

Like most humans you put the cart before the horse. In this case God as a result of brain action and not brain activity as a result of God's action when He created man.

It has got nothing to do with evolution and for the life of me I cannot see how it could. In fact evolution is also a result of the creation and not the other way round, but I guess it's all part of God's exactitude when He set men at odds with Himself by the fall.

Opposition to God is so complete that it is natural to consider what man feels and not how God made things to be. Cannot you understand that was so, so that He as Saviour could come to this planet that many never knowing God could join Him where He abides?

For sure many religions when exposed see Him as a figment of the imagination rather than who He really is and this is seen by their own activities both in action and belief, most of whom have very little. They are in awe of Darwin, happy to change what God has laid down in their popularity quest to retain some followers.

So consider that Adam and Eve's brains were clouded by a veil until they fell and then the veil was lifted to expose them to things as of yet unknown. Just so the fallen and/or blind when God lays His hand on them in the act of regeneration. Then all that was of their natures is taken away, as if veiled, to reveal a new nature quite different.

Their bodies remain outwardly the same, yet their brains thinks differently, their nature completely changed as experience will tell as time begins again for them. What was by nature their friend is by their new nature their enemy. Where in all that has evolution the capacity to enact such a change? It hasn't and never had since in reality it only exists in the imagination of man.

Using God to prove God totally erases all legitimacy from your argument.

I can tell you that there's a fairy in my backyard, because the fairy told me so. Does this prove that theres a fairy in my backyard? No.

is it not possible god gave them to us so that we would know of god?

Absolutely.