New temple Info/ Help wanted on History

[Gotthard]

Alright gang, I recently sent DVK a rework of the temple tree. While Squid did a great job providing us with a WIDE (some say too wide) variety of temples, the new economic model in RS2 requires some buildings, so temples have been redone. This beta is just a gutting of the old system and traits.

THE NEW SYSTEM:

There will be NINE temple trees. At this point (and this can change during the discussion) ALL nine are available to every faction. They are in 3 categories: MILITARY, CIVILIAN, and GOVERNMENT. A city may build ONE shrine from each category. So, ONE military shrine, ONE civilian shrine, and ONE government shrine. A city may upgrade ONE of these shrines to level 3, and ONE of these shrines to level 5. (This can change over the discussion, but no more than 9 levels of temples will be allowed in any given city)

What do I need from you? Names for the temples Unless oyu want them all to have greek names. Here are the greek/Roman temple names, I need every other faction filled in. If they aren't filled in, they get whichever greek or Roman name I think sounds the best.

MILITARY TEMPLES

WAR - Ares/Mars (Will provide the best exp/morale boost, but has a mix of positive and negative traits associated with it, and penalizes law in the city)

LEADERSHIP - Athena/??? (Will provide modest boost to exp/morale, but the best military traits temples provide. Small bonus to law.

BATTLEFORGE - Hephaestus/Vulcan (Will provide small equipment bonuses, traits related to construction/siege, and small mining bonuses. Small bonuses for city planning, etc.)

GOVERNMENT TEMPLES

LAW- Zeus/Jupiter (Will provide large law bonuses, modest bonus to tax income. Traits include law/justice related traits, public security and safety.)

BUILDING - Hera/??? (Will provide modest law/happiness/health boosts, traits include city planning, squalor reduction, construction bonuses)

INTEGRATION - Poseiden/Neptune (Provides general bonuses, modest, like trade, farming, happiness, law, tax income, etc. Sort of an 'average' of civilian and government types)

CIVILIAN TEMPLES

FARMING - Demeter/Ceres (Will provide farming bonuses, modest happiness bonus. Traits include farming better, fertility, and public health/happiness.)

TRADE - Hermes/Mercury (Will provide trade bonuses, penalty to tax, traits include both positive and negative economic ones, interacts heaviliy with the new 'trade school' education line.)

GROWTH - Apollo/?? (Will provide growth and hapiness bonuses, and help with smaller traits related to growth, happier personality, but some negative ones like womanizing, etc.)

SO... job time. For every faction, I need 9 gods. I'd also like a description of the God and worship, to make it nice and pretty. I"ll do the code, the rest is up to you. I have no qualms leaving it 'Temple to Zeus' for the Dacians, or, God forbid 'WAR_TEMPLE_SHRINE'. I will update this post with factional descriptions as they come in, and feel free to discuss bonuses, or other factors in this system. When the descriptions are complete for each, (or at least a rough outline) I will post the traits that will be associated with each building, and perhaps on a facitonal basis. But I'm still working out those details. The numbers for the baseline bonuses are done, but I'm not posting them because I don't want to go 8 rounds on them until the rest of the economic system is done. But general comments are fine. Discussion is open until I say otherwise

FACTIONAL GODS:

Cimbri:

War: Tor
Leadership: Tyr
Battleforge: Sindre
Law: Oden
Building: Balder
Integration: Ägir
Farming: Frej or Freja (Donar?)
Trade: Loke
Growth: Freja or Frej

Roman:

War: Mars
Leadership: Minerva
Battleforge: Vulcan
Law: Jupiter
Building: Juno
Integration: Neptune
Farming: Ceres
Trade: Mercury
Growth: Apollo

Greek:

War: Ares
Leadership: Athena
Battleforge: Hephaestus
Law: Zeus
Building: Hera
Integration: Poseidon
Farming: Demeter
Trade: Hermes
Growth: Apollo

[rory o'kane]

RTR has a system like this - you can build one "main" Shrine, following the normal temple line, of your choice (say, for example, you can choose from Jupiter, Mars, Ceres and Neptune), then you can build 2-3 other "Minor Shrines" which then can be upgraded into "Minor Temples" but no further. So, it's 5-2-2, which i like better than 5-3-1 (there's a sense of symmetry).

Oh, and by the way - the Roman equivalent of Hera is Juno, Athena = Minerva, and Apollo = Apollo.
oh, and it's Poseidon.

[The Sloth]

I'd suggest the following for the Cimbri:

War: Erminaz (Irmin, in RS1,5)
Leadership: Tiwaz (or Tyr)
Battleforge: Wieland
Law: Wodanaz (Woden)
Building: Frigg
Integration: Ägir
Farming: Dunraz (Donar)
Trade: Loki
Growth: Freyja

[apple]

I'd suggest the following for the Cimbri:

War: Erminaz (Irmin, in RS1,5)
Leadership: Tiwaz (or Tyr)
Battleforge: Wieland
Law: Wodanaz (Woden)
Building: Frigg
Integration: Ägir
Farming: Dunraz (Donar)
Trade: Loki
Growth: Freyja

Thuisco - The founder of this race.

Sunna - The Germanic sun goddess. (Sunday)
Mani - The Germanic moon god. (Monday)
Tyr - The god of single combat. (Tuesday means Tyr's day.)

Wotan / Oden - The head of all god's. He is associated with wisdom, war, battle and death. Also magic, poetry, prophecy, victory, and the hunt. A Germanic version of Zeus (Wednesday)

Tor – God of thunder. The Germanic version of Mars. (Thursday)
Freja – The god of love and fertility. Wife of Oden. (Friday)
Frej- Brother of Freja and a god of love as well. (Friday)

Hertha - The goddess who dwells in a sacred grove by the lake.

War: Tor
Leadership: Tyr
Battleforge: Sindre
Law: Oden
Building: Balder
Integration: Ägir
Farming: Frej or Freja
Trade: Loke
Growth: Freja or Frej

This is as good as I could gett it.
Nordic god's are many and has often many different names like oden (woden/wotan) but these are the most comon names that they used and we in the nordic countries still use.

I could not find a Building good but I think that Balder fit that position the best of all alternativs there is.
He was the best of god's, many think that Jesus has is somewhat based on Balder as they both share the same features (associated with light and beauty etc.) and both dies but then rises for the dead to rule the new better world. (after Ragnarök)

[Gotthard]

RTR has a system like this - you can build one "main" Shrine, following the normal temple line, of your choice (say, for example, you can choose from Jupiter, Mars, Ceres and Neptune), then you can build 2-3 other "Minor Shrines" which then can be upgraded into "Minor Temples" but no further. So, it's 5-2-2, which i like better than 5-3-1 (there's a sense of symmetry).

I would be open to this, and it would most likely be easier to code. iirc, they did it sort of inefficiently, in that they made a whole line of 'minor shrine' buildings, but the theory is fine.

Rory, this is your chance to have the roman gods you want. I'm not attached to the names, are those ok with you?

[rory o'kane]

my only real gripe is with the Poseidon/Neptune one - they were the god of the sea, and so "Integration" doesn't really fit. that said, they were one of the BIG THREE of the Hellenic Pantheon (Zeus, Poseidon and Hades), so i don't think we should get rid of him...

[Gotthard]

I base this off of Squid, he had them give farming, law, and trade bonuses, seemed like a 'all in one' sort of god. Again, re-arrange the names how you'd like, I figured the big three should be in government though.

[cherryfunk]

In my (extremely humble) opinion, nine is too many. Five to six is good, seven is really pushing it, nine is way overboard.

[The Sloth]

Nine is fine.

[Gotthard]

9 choices per faction? They are pretty distinct, each has it's own function in the settlement. I am open to limiting some kinds of temples to some factions, but I'd need others to tell me how.

For example, perhaps the Germans don't get the 'trade' temple.

[cherryfunk]

9 choices per faction? They are pretty distinct, each has it's own function in the settlement. I am open to limiting some kinds of temples to some factions, but I'd need others to tell me how.

For example, perhaps the Germans don't get the 'trade' temple.

Now that's a good idea Gotthard -- some factions don't get some temple options; that makes each a bit more unique and cuts down on temple bloat, win/win!

Here's my thoughts on it; I'm citing more than one temple for some factions, but the first is the one I'd cut first, 2nd is the one I'd cut 2nd, etc.

SMELLY BARBARIAN FACTIONS

ARVERNI -- No Law (politically disjointed culture)

BELGAE -- No Battleforge (low tech), No Law

BOII -- No Law, No Trade

CIMBRI -- No Battleforge (low tech), No Trade

IBERIAN -- No Battleforge, No Law

SCYTHIAN -- No Building, No Integration

SARMATIANS -- No Farming, No Trade

SCENTED CIVILIZED FACTIONS

ROME -- ? (No Integration?)

CARTHAGE -- No Integration (difficulty colonizing)

FREE GREEKS -- No Growth

SPARTA -- No Trade, No Integration

MACEDON -- No Integration

PERGAMON -- No Farming

PTOLEMIES -- No Leadership? No Integration?

ARMENIA -- No Farming (Mountainous terrain)

PARTHIA -- No Battleforge, No Farming

SELEUCIDS -- No Integration

[The Sloth]

Your reasons why a faction doesn't deserve this or that temple seem somewhat random, Cherry. How would cutting down the only really unique buildings help differenciate factions? And about the temple spam, I'd say having no more temples of love, fertility, horse, victory, one god, viking, hunting, law and fun is more than enough.

Oh, and Maxim, keep in mind that we're talking about the old germanic goods. So wouldn't it really be Woden instead of Odin etc?

[apple]

Oh, and Maxim, keep in mind that we're talking about the old germanic goods. So wouldn't it really be Woden instead of Odin etc?

Well they are just different names and as Cimbri is from denmark I think that they would use Oden rather than Woden + it's easier for people to relate to a name they now.
I would say that all of his (really many) names would work as nobody is sure where it was used etc., it's mostly speculations as they didn't write down that much.

@Cherry,

CIMBRI -- No Battleforge (low tech), No Trade

I think that they should keep there battleforge as they smith many thing, just not as good as the celts for an example as there resources was not as good as there.

[Gotthard]

I think 'Balance' and 'Integration' might be interchangeable. I see Poseidon as balance, integrating things together. For example, the Egyptians used water channels to see if the ground was level, that sort of thing.

I think Romans might due without CIV_GROW, I see it more as a greek thing, with the emphasis on the self (it is sort of the party god, that and bacchus) which romans wouldn't appreciate.

I really wish I could have worked in other gods, like Artemis (who, let's face it, kicks ass), but I'm not sure how. One thing I was thinking was having the large temple act more as a 'complex' ie. Ares and Artemis are inthe pantheon or something. Mostly just for description flavor, but it's an idea.

Again, completly open to restricting temples based on both culture and faction, I will need to check with dvk to see if we can have multiple factional restriction lines in the code, but if so, it will make the lines longer, but easier to code.

Also, I can certainly give factional bonuses to different temples, a war temple for the Germans might actually GIVE law, this was designed off a roman mindset (well, what I know of it...) I will use the roman numbers as a base, and then we can tweak it from there.

[cherryfunk]

Your reasons why a faction doesn't deserve this or that temple seem somewhat random, Cherry.

Do you have alternate suggestions?

How would cutting down the only really unique buildings help differenciate factions?

If the Celts can't build TRADE temples, they're less like the Greeks, who can.

[Gotthard]

Hopefully mulatto chimes in here... I think Dacia might be a problem. Hopefully, we can use a lot of Squid's old stuff, I thought it looked good.

I was thinking of having 3 ancillary priests per temple, one for the level 1-2, and one for the level 3-4 (as it will be hard to get temples that high...), and one for level 5. That might be too many... just wanted to have more variety in the priests now that we're going to have less temples. Additionally, extra bonuses for specializing in a branch seems like a decent idea, and they'd be more rare. Thoughts?

[apple]

The more the better.
I might be able to help on the germanic ones.

[dvk901]

You can use the old temples as a guide for this, a lot of work was put into them and the descriptions.....shame to waste it. They were all redone.

[cherryfunk]

Sloth, sorry for the terse response; of course you're right, some of the cultural penalties are a bit arbitrary, because that list of temples doesn't break out along cultural lines.

One thing I liked about vanilla RTW was the split between the eastern and western methods of maintaining order, with buildings that had similar but slightly different effects; it gives each culture a bit of flavor.

I think a cultural split could work well for RS2 if the overall temple plan was modified, so that each area of focus had more than one method of getting that result. So the WAR branch might have a temple to Disciple and Training for one faction (say, the Greeks), and a temple to Ferocity in another faction (say, the Celts). Each temple would give military-related bonuses, but different specific bonuses and penalties, which would be culture-appropriate -- giving each culture a slightly unique flavor.

A plan like this might look something like this (warning: extremely rough draft!):

SPHERE OF ORDER

FULFILLMENT TEMPLE
Bonuses: Order, Happiness
Penalties: Taxes
Available to: Greeks

OBEDIENCE TEMPLE
Bonuses: Order
Penalties: Taxes
Available to: Easterners, Carthage

Romans and Barbarians can build either Fulfillment or Obedience temples.


SPHERE OF BATTLE

MARTIAL DISCIPLINE TEMPLE
Bonuses: Unit experience, Unit morale
Penalties: Taxes
Available to: Carthage, Greeks, Romans, Easterners

MARTIAL FURY TEMPLE
Bonuses: Unit morale, Unit experience (something else?)
Penalties: Taxes
Available to: Barbarians, Easterners

MARTIAL INDUSTRY TEMPLE
Bonuses: Weapons and Armor
Penalties: Taxes, Health
Available to: Greeks, Romans, Carthage

SPHERE OF GROWTH

HEALTH TEMPLE
Bonuses: Health, Growth, Happiness
Penalties: Taxes
Available to: Greeks, Romans, Easterners

AGRICULTURE TEMPLE
Bonuses: Farming, Growth, Happiness
Penalties: Taxes
Available to: Barbarians, Romans, Carthage, Easterners


SPHERE OF FINANCES

TRADE TEMPLE
Bonuses: Trade income, Happiness, Population Growth
Penalties: Health
Available to: Greeks, Romans, Easterners, Carthage

TRIBUTE TEMPLE
Bonuses: Tax income
Penalties: Happiness, Order
Available to: Barbarians, Romans, Easterners

====================

This way, each faction would have at least one temple from each sphere, some will have access to more than one. So a Carthaginian player could focus more on Trade or on Tribute, depending on which was the better option in the city in question, while a Barbarian faction would not have the Trade option, being forced to go the Tribute path if they want to build an income-focused temple.

The Barbarians could build Martial Fury temples to improve their units effectiveness, but not a Martial Industry temple to improve weapon quality, while the Romans would be the reverse, and so on...

[Gotthard]

@Cherry~

First of all, extremely interesting. A couple questions:

1. Is there still a single level 5, and 2 level 2's per temple? If so... (and I know you don't know this) it becomes (literally!) 4x harder to code conditionals for the building tree, which is actually my only major concern here. If a faction only had 3 available orders... but even still, the 4th may exist from a previous faction. Damn.

In fact, when I said I had a couple, I just had one. The damn coding of it. Right now, (in my system) we have

m1, m2, m3, g1, g2, g3, c1, c2, c3 (Military #1 to Civilian #3)

Now, in this, m1.1 = Millitary #1, level 1

So, if we are upgrading c1.1 to c1.2, no problem, they all can go this high. But when going from c2.2 -> c2.3, we have issues, because we need to make sure: ('U' = 'or', '^' = 'and', '~' = not)

~(m1.3 U m2.3 U m3.3) ^ ~(g1.3 U g2.3 U g3.3)

Ouch, but I *think* doable. But RTW gets all y whenever they get long, and with yours, we'd have (where a,b,c,d are your 4 spheres)

~(a1.3 U a2.3) ^ ~(b1.3 U b2.3) ^ ~(c1.3 U c2.3 U c3.3) ^ ~(d1.3 U d2.3)

Using logical algebra, I think this works. ...someone who knows logic can check me. Problem comes in 4 spheres. To just check for shrines... damn. Say you want to build d1.1:

~(a1.1 ^ b1.1 ^ c1.1) U ~(a1.1 ^ b1.1 ^ c2.1) U ~(a1.1 ^ b2.1 ^ c1.1) U ~(a1.1 ^ b2.1 ^ c2.1) U ~(a1.1 ^ b3.1 ^ c1.1) U ~(a1.1 ^ b3.1 ^ c2.1) U ~(a2.1 ^ b1.1 ^ c1.1) U ~(a2.1 ^ b1.1 ^ c2.1) U ~(a2.1 ^ b2.1 ^ c1.1) U ~(a2.1 ^ b2.1 ^ c2.1) U ~(a2.1 ^ b3.1 ^ c1.1) U ~(a2.1 ^ b3.1 ^ c2.1)

More simply, check out the top box and the bottom box. That's how much worse it gets. This is the coding required for one level of one temple of one sphere. Now, multiply that by 9. I honesty don't know if RTW even accepts conditionals that long.

Now, with restricted domains for different factions, this would get simpler. But I don't know if RTW accepts unlimited 'requires factions {x,y,z} and' lines, although dvk assures me it's so, I've read others having problems.

I *like* the spheres, I *like* the restrictions, but 4 spheres might be a game breaker here. I"m not giving up yet, some clever restrictions and re-categorizations may yet pull something out, but if you could see to have 3 spheres, my brain would thank you