Was Bush really that bad?

[RVFVS]

I am taking no sides I just want a nice little debate. On one hand Bush was a fool when it came to economic and global relations. On the other he provided for the Amrican people a war leader second to none. I mean he went to war and did a good job. Some say without Bush's leadership skill and convincing America would have fallen to pieces. He provided a base for Americans and he in essance was America for a few months after 9/11.

[mrmouth]

This discussion has already been had, saw it in the early stages, likely disintegrated into nonsense.

[mongrel]

Technically, he is a war criminal. Any comments, good or bad, would be insignificant in the light of what he did to Iraq.

[Valiant Champion]

If he is a war criminal it would have been for the smallest tally of innocent deaths of any war criminal in history. Most are usually connected to hundreds of thousands or millions.

Bush will go down after all is said and done as a good president that had to carry the nation through a bad era. If that era persist the next 4 years I think we will see just how good a president he was when the Chosen one doesnt prove to be our honorable saviour.

[Zephyrus]

If he is a war criminal it would have been for the smallest tally of innocent deaths of any war criminal in history. Most are usually connected to hundreds of thousands or millions.

Bush will go down after all is said and done as a good president that had to carry the nation through a bad era. If that era persist the next 4 years I think we will see just how good a president he was when the Chosen one doesnt prove to be our honorable saviour.

I'm completely confident the Iraqis would disagree, VC. Dodge the shoe, any1?

[Furion]

The source is from Wiki, I don't like to use it but there is refernce under that.

Now, give me reliable source that claim "millions Iraqi died in the conflict".

LOL, your wikipedia link only proves your wrong! And considerign that they say on the swedish news it has already passed on million, Im certain the first one is the correct one.

Egypt, Syria, Pakistan, any name in Central Asia you can bring out, at least half of Africa, several South American countries (I know there were some in 80s).
Want somemore??

I know there are lots of contries with torture, but noone with as much as america.

I want sources for all these or I would just dismiss it as nonsense; if it is so easy to find one why you don't just provide them??

Dont you get that is the sources itself?

And dont you get that there isnt wikipedia links for everything? that I cant just send you the newspapers I read? If you want proof, just search on google USA+Tortures and you will get thousands of articles.

Sorry, but you are over exaggerating. Thousands of people were not tortured, not even hundreds, probably a few dozen at the max. And torture has nothing to do with Bush particularly, torture has been used by previous presidents as well, Bush got the most slack because everything he did was put under the microscope. I would say over the coming years, torture would be completely phased out as a interrogation method since the public definitely does not approve it, and the amount of torture has gone down exponentially since the war began, just shows the changing times.

I dont think anyone has created so much torture today as Bush, considering all the torture camps you got like guantanamo etc. You are probably worse than russia these days, but atleast you have democratic elections.

Sorry, movies and documentaries are not evidence, everyone has agendas. If you want evidence, you should look for them with international aid organizations and human rights watch groups. Not movies.

Sorry but I dont have a life bad enough to go trough every aid organizaition.
Some movies are documentaries with a meaning. Watch The road to guantanamo, you will change your mind.

[Surgeon]

I dont think anyone has done created so much torture as Bush, considering all the torture camps you got likeguantanamo etc.

Seriously?

[Dead*Man*Wilson]

I think he did an incredible job of making Americans look like imperialist swine. However, I'm sure history will look upon him more favorable in time.

[Thorn777]

I think he did an incredible job of making Americans look like imperialist swine. However, I'm sure history will look upon him more favorable in time.

I cant believe this allready banal oneliner is so often used on this forum.

But hey, who am I. About what would youll people think he would look good at all of a sudden in 20 years or so?

[mongrel]

If he is a war criminal it would have been for the smallest tally of innocent deaths of any war criminal in history. Most are usually connected to hundreds of thousands or millions.

Bush will go down after all is said and done as a good president that had to carry the nation through a bad era. If that era persist the next 4 years I think we will see just how good a president he was when the Chosen one doesnt prove to be our honorable saviour.

I am talking about the Nuremberg Principles (for which Nazis and Japanese generals were executed, rather than putting some moral point.. He launched a war of aggression against Iraq which cost around 1m lives. And I do think that overseeing the near destruction of a major city and more or less the entire US economy is hardly a great achievement by any standards.

[mrmouth]

Dont bother, we already had a thread, or two, go nowhere because of one sentence, inflammatory posts.

[Furion]

I think he was one of the badest presidents ever. During his leadership we have a global economic depression.
He has tortured hundreds of thousands innocent arabians.
He has created guantanamo.
He created many torture settlements.
He has spent billions billions on war, aswell as millions of iraqi lives.
He has destroyed americas global reputation.
He has had an politic to support the rich.
He has done nothing really good in USA itself.

And seriously, why did he go to Iraq? To hunt al qaida? To free iraq? Seriously he could have gone to burma or some people who WANTS to be free. It was all OIL money and 9/11 REVENGE!

[hellheaven1987]

I think he was one of the badest presidents ever. During his leadership we have a global economic depression.
He has tortured hundreds of thousands innocent arabians.
He has created guantanamo.
He created many torture settlements.
He has spent billions billions on war, aswell as millions of iraqi lives.
He has destroyed americas global reputation.
He has had an politic to support the rich.
He has done nothing really good in USA itself.

I lol when I saw this.

1. The casualty of Iraqi probably not even reach 50,000.

2. His invasion of Iraq may save millions Iraqi but it is decided by future, which we would see.

3. If torture makes him a bad president, then 2/3 of whole world are probably in hell (since torture is widely used).

4. Also, I don't see the difference between asking other countries to torture your prisoners and torture your prisoners by yourself.

5. Give sources about "torturing millions innocent Arabian".

And there is no such word as "badest".

Bad, worse, worst.

[Furion]

1. The casualty of Iraqi probably not even reach 50,000.

Thats just americans, Now I am speaking iraqis. They, too, have a life.

2. His invasion of Iraq may save millions Iraqi but it is decided by future, which we would see.

Oh it would? Thats intereting becuase 1 million has already died in Iraq since the invasion begun.

3. If torture makes him a bad president, then 2/3 of whole world are probably in hell (since torture is widely used).

LOL!!!!

You think there is any country except China, Turkey and small dictator countries that has such mass torture that USA has today? Look at guantanamo Bay?

4. Also, I don't see the difference between asking other countries to torture your prisoners and torture your prisoners by yourself.

What? What you are doing is to randomly select muslims (american muslims aswell), then torture them without trial or proof. You are probably torturing moore than Saddam did by this point.

5. Give sources about "torturing millions innocent Arabian".

It wasnt Millions, it was houndreds of thousands. Just search on google and youll have as many articles as you like, or you can watch "the road to guantanamo" a movie thats not from hollywood.
You should also watch "rendition". And trust me thoose moviemakers knows moore about this than you do.

Or you can watch all the pictures from Arj Ghirab (or wtf the name was) were you torture muslims by making them build naked gay piles

[patrick1191]

Thats just americans, Now I am speaking iraqis. They, too, have a life.

Most Iraqis have been killed by............... Iraqis!

Oh it would? Thats intereting becuase 1 million has already died in Iraq since the invasion begun.

Proof of number, and the civil war would have happen with the invasion or not.

You think there is any country except China, Turkey and small dictator countries that has such mass torture that USA has today? Look at guantanamo Bay?

Mass torture? Are ing kidding me? Give me numbers. I want solid proof of this "mass torture", until you do what I just quoted is complete BS.

It wasnt Millions, it was houndreds of thousands. Just search on google and youll have as many articles as you like, or you can watch "the road to guantanamo" a movie thats not from hollywood.
You should also watch "rendition". And trust me thoose moviemakers knows moore about this than you do.

Thats not how things work you make the accusations you give the sources.

What? What you are doing is to randomly select muslims (american muslims aswell), then torture them without trial or proof. You are probably torturing moore than Saddam did by this point.

Wanna know what would make this a little believable... Proof

Or you can watch all the pictures from Arj Ghirab (or wtf the name was) were you torture muslims by making them build naked gay piles

How long did that go on for and were the people in the picture punished?

[fieldmarshal]

It wasnt Millions, it was houndreds of thousands. Just search on google and youll have as many articles as you like, or you can watch "the road to guantanamo" a movie thats not from hollywood.
You should also watch "rendition". And trust me thoose movie makers knows moore about this than you do.

Sorry, but you are over exaggerating. Thousands of people were not tortured, not even hundreds, probably a few dozen at the max. And torture has nothing to do with Bush particularly, torture has been used by previous presidents as well, Bush got the most slack because everything he did was put under the microscope. I would say over the coming years, torture would be completely phased out as a interrogation method since the public definitely does not approve it, and the amount of torture has gone down exponentially since the war began, just shows the changing times.

Sorry, movies and documentaries are not evidence, everyone has agendas. If you want evidence, you should look for them with international aid organizations and human rights watch groups. Not movies.

[hellheaven1987]

You truly piss me off now.

Thats just americans, Now I am speaking iraqis. They, too, have a life.

Oh it would? Thats intereting becuase 1 million has already died in Iraq since the invasion begun.

All Iraqi violent deaths, Opinion Research Business – August 2007: 1,033,000 (946,000-1,120,000) (gunshots 48%, car bombs 20%, aerial bombing 9%, accidents 6%, other blast/ordnance 6%)[26]

***Total deaths (all excess deaths), (Lancet) – June 2006: 654,965 (392,979-942,636) 601,027 violent deaths (31% Coalition, 24% Others, 46% unknown)[27][28]

All Iraqi violent deaths, Iraqi Health Ministry casualty survey for the World Health Organization – June 2006: 151,000 (104,000-223,000)[29][30][31][32]

The source is from Wiki, I don't like to use it but there is refernce under that.

Now, give me reliable source that claim "millions Iraqi died in the conflict".

You think there is any country except China, Turkey and small dictator countries that has such mass torture that USA has today? Look at guantanamo Bay?

Egypt, Syria, Pakistan, any name in Central Asia you can bring out, at least half of Africa, several South American countries (I know there were some in 80s).

Want somemore??

What? What you are doing is to randomly select muslims (american muslims aswell), then torture them without trial or proof. You are probably torturing moore than Saddam did by this point.

It wasnt Millions, it was houndreds of thousands. Just search on google and youll have as many articles as you like, or you can watch "the road to guantanamo" a movie thats not from hollywood.

You should also watch "rendition". And trust me thoose moviemakers knows moore about this than you do.

I want sources for all these or I would just dismiss it as nonsense; if it is so easy to find one why you don't just provide them??

[Surgeon]

The source is from Wiki, I don't like to use it but there is refernce under that.

Sorry, I doubt it's even that much.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

89,881-98,133

Give him a few decades and then judge him. Right now is too soon. I thought he was pretty average for a president. Certainly better than his predecessor.

[AqD]

You think there is any country except China, Turkey and small dictator countries that has such mass torture that USA has today?

Yes. But it's sad that USA acts like them.

[TheKwas]

I lol when I saw this.

1. The casualty of Iraqi probably not even reach 50,000.

I find it quite amusing that you say this, and only a few posts down you quote this:

All Iraqi violent deaths, Opinion Research Business – August 2007:1,033,000 (946,000-1,120,000) (gunshots 48%, car bombs 20%, aerial bombing 9%, accidents 6%, other blast/ordnance 6%)[26]

***Total deaths (all excess deaths), (Lancet) – June 2006: 654,965 (392,979-942,636) 601,027 violent deaths (31% Coalition, 24% Others, 46% unknown)[27][28]

All Iraqi violent deaths, Iraqi Health Ministry casualty survey for the World Health Organization – June 2006: 151,000 (104,000-223,000)[29][30][31][32]

All of these numbers are signficantly larger than 50,000. Who needs debate skills when your opponent refutes himself?


However, the extremely amusing part is that, when your opponent says: "Thats intereting becuase 1 million [Iraqis have] already died in Iraq since the invasion begun."

You shoot back immediately with the following study, in order to prove him wrong:

All Iraqi violent deaths, Opinion Research Business – August 2007: 1,033,000 (946,000-1,120,000)

I won't bother getting involved in any debate in this thread. When my opponents are defeating themselves, I try not to get in the way.