Question on AI Diplomacy

[Strasbourg]

I'm playing the Romans historically on Hard Campaign, Very Hard battle and am getting near 242BC, so peace with Carthage is near. I control Italy south of Po and all the Carthaginian islands around Italy. I send some spies into the Balkans and I see that Illyria is down to their last city, I wasn't able to save them from Macedon. So in 229 I'm gonna have to face the Black Death.

Anyways, Macedon is bordering me and will start attacking, so I decide to pop into the Pelloponesse with 4 legions. I conquer Elis, Corinth, Sparta and Thermon quickly and send a diplomat trying to find the Greeks. I finally find them at Byzantium. I am at peace with them, so I offer them those 4 cities in exchange for map rights, trying to power broker the Greeks some firepower. They don't agree, tell me they have nothing to offer in return. So the next turn I offer the 4 cities again, with nothing in return, and click the gift button. They don't take it, once again saying that they have nothing in return. Why wouldn't they take 4 free cities right in the middle of their starting area.

Also if I conquer Dalmatia and let the cities riot, they'd go to the rebels right? What causes a city returning to its original owner faction if it riots?

[fourganger]

You cannot hope to fathom the ways of the AI. I myself have come a cropper from their refusual to accept free territory, even in strategically useful locations (in my example, it was also Greece).

[Strasbourg]

I exterminated the cities when i conquered them, since macedon was going to get them back soon anyway. I guess I'll just conquer former Illyria and Athens and let all of those towns rebel.

Greece becomes a protectorate in 197 after Cynosphelae but I guess I'll just conquer Greece and put everything on low tax to simulate the minimal profit you'd get from protectorates. Gonna suck not having that buffer between me and Macedon though.

Maybe restarting and protecting Illyria/Greece earlier would be easier. I had to use 2 depleted legions for about 15 years between 260 and 240 in Sicily trying to calm down Syracusan and Carthaginian rebels since i didn't even enslave those towns.

[morteduzionism]

Greece becomes a protectorate in 197 after Cynosphelae but I guess I'll just conquer Greece and put everything on low tax to simulate the minimal profit you'd get from protectorates. Gonna suck not having that buffer between me and Macedon though.

:hmmm:...interesting idea, I might try this. The population explosion doesn't worry you?

Maybe restarting and protecting Illyria/Greece earlier would be easier.

Good luck! You can only help those who want to help themselves. Greece isn't anything to worry about. Either Greece/Makedonia will absorb the other (they're sort of the same anyway) the problem comes when one of those factions end up destroying: Illyria, Thrace, Sarmatia and Germany. And then start working on Gaul.

I had to use 2 depleted legions for about 15 years between 260 and 240 in Sicily trying to calm down Syracusan and Carthaginian rebels since i didn't even enslave those towns.

Why did you have to use "2 depleted legions?" You couldn't retrain them? I hope you don't mean you had to keep both legions in Sicily? You must've taken Lilybaeum too early.

If you stop your expansion at Agrigentum and wait, Carthage doesn't attack as much. However, take Lilybaeum before Himilicar spawns (250-45BC) and you will see stack-after-stack of Carthaginians attacking. By waiting you can leave one legion in Sicily (Carthage will routinely attack Messana but it'll be token forces rarely, if ever, a full stack) and have the other in Italy to protect against brigands and the random raid by Illyria.

Depending on when you take Agrigentum you could have between 15-20yrs of relative peace and economic growth. During this period you should be able to send your second legion across the Adriatic once or twice to retard Macedonian growth. Don't go too far you want to be able to quickly get back to Italy if/when an emergency happens.

Another thing, I think a lot of players don't realize this, you said that Macedonia was "bordering" you? I take it that means that they [Macedonia] had taken the Illyrian territories? In addition to this, you were still at war with Carthage, right?

Tsk, tsk, tsk...

When you decided to "pop into the Pelloponesse[sic] with 4 legions" and start a war with Macedonia...what did you think would happen to your economy?

Italy gets most of its' trade from the Balkans and Africa.

You don't trade with factions you're at war with!

It becomes extremely difficult to prosecute wars with unstable economies.

Before you turn your attention to the east you should settle with Carthage first. Take Corsica/Sardinia (after Himilicar spawns) and get a cease fire/trades rights with them. You can then bring that legion out of Sicily.

Just to make sure I'm clear. Here's the timeline:

280BC-265BC: take all of Italy and Sicily up to Agrigentum; make peace with Greece; possibly make peace with Carthage which will last untily you get to Sicily

265BC-245BC: do pretty much nothing but develop your infrastructure/economy and beat back the occasional raid

245BC-229BC: take the rest of Sicily & Corsica/Sardinia (after Himilicar spawns); make another peace/trade rights with Carthage; possibly take Ariminum* and Gaul south of the Po; begin preparations for the invasion of the Balkans; possibly send an army into the Balkans to check Macedonia/Greece

See? This will give you two periods of 10+ years of relative peace which you can use to strengthen yourself.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
*Ariminum: like Lilybaeum I think this city has something funny with it. If you take it too early you'll trigger a war with Gaul and they'll be sending stack-after-stack across the border from that point onward. If you hold out until after you get the "Gallic incursion" (230's) message there shouldn't be a problem.

I suppose it's up to you how you want to handle Cisalpine Gaul. I usually leave it alone for awhile in case Macedonia manages to make it to...modern day Slovenia (can't remember the city name)...I'll have Gaul as a buffer.

[Strasbourg]

The thing i meant about sicily is that when i conquered Liby and Syracuse i didn't execute or enslave them, so I was left with a huge population. I had to keep half a stack in each city for 15 years (while building temples) or else the cities would rebel no matter what.

Macedon conquered Patavium and Mediolanum, they were going to attack me anyway

edit: having an enlarged full stack on the border tends to discourage the gauls from doing much. They just recruit for 20 turns an army of warbands, get smashed and then go back to recruiting.

[Incomitatus]

I would suggest gifting them one city at a time. Or offering them a city plus a LOT of money. I don't think the AI will accept anything (other than money) if their treasury is in the red. Which is stupid since cities make money, but there you have it.

[fourganger]

You can always use forced diplomacy as well, although you may have to manually install it.

[Jamey]

Forced diplomacy is really convenient. I use it for two purposes.

1) Forcing the AI to make peace when it logically should (E.g. Dear AI, you have 3 settlements and I have 20. I have 2 stacks on your border. Please make peace and trade with me. AI Response: NEVER!).

2) Giving the AI settlements without breaking the bank. Yes, you have to pay the AI to take settlements. Often a few thousand will work, but sometimes it is really dumb.

If you abuse it, you can probably take a lot of fun out of the game.

-----

As for the AI in general, its behavior is complicated. You can never rely on it to keep its word, so always keep troops on land borders. No AI ally will avoid attacking a weakly held neighboring settlement. I have maintained alliances for entire games. I have also had the AI break every alliance and pile on me (using similar diplomatic tactics).

[horatius]

Forced diplomacy is really convenient. I use it for two purposes.

1) Forcing the AI to make peace when it logically should (E.g. Dear AI, you have 3 settlements and I have 20. I have 2 stacks on your border. Please make peace and trade with me. AI Response: NEVER!).

2) Giving the AI settlements without breaking the bank. Yes, you have to pay the AI to take settlements. Often a few thousand will work, but sometimes it is really dumb.

If you abuse it, you can probably take a lot of fun out of the game.

Umm, how does one go about using Forced Diplomacy? I don't want to abuse it, but sometimes the AI needs it. Especially when I want to give settlements to weaker powers to help them survive.

Thank you.

[Brusilov]

Yes, I've found when offering settlements it's easier to gift money as well. The AI controlled factions do refuse certain settlements if it clearly is not in thier interest to accept them.

'Raiding' is an option if you think you have no hope of holding a settlement. However, it's sometimes easier to do this to draw the AIs main attention to this settlement when you plan to invade somwehere else.

Personally, if I have taken a settlement on the Greek mainland I will try and hold onto it and if possible expand. It's one of the tactics that can be used to slow down the 'black death'.

[Strasbourg]

Personally, if I have taken a settlement on the Greek mainland I will try and hold onto it and if possible expand. It's one of the tactics that can be used to slow down the 'black death'.

Well I was in 240 and Rome didn't get Macedon/Greece until after the 4th macedonian war in 148. I ended up taking the money hint and it worked, 5k ended up with them taking their towns.

I restarted that game however, in the new one Greece seems to be holding out, Illyria is expanding at the cost of Macedon and Greece and Macedon is expanding north into thrace

[fourganger]

Personally, if I have taken a settlement on the Greek mainland I will try and hold onto it and if possible expand. It's one of the tactics that can be used to slow down the 'black death'.

At the time, I simply did not have the military power to deal with the Maks as I was dealing with a massive Carthaginian incursion at the time. Therefore I thought gifting my captured Greek lands to another faction might help slow them down. Alas! THe AI refused even with a cash incentive.

:hmmm:

[Quinn Inuit]

You just need to install the scripts and follow the directions. Feel free to steal the ExRM's scripts (we have directions, too), although they're DimeBagHo's so I can't authorize you to implement them for any use beyond your personal use.