The Great Seljuk's mistake...

[Atatürk]

I think that the Broken Crescent team has got the Seljuk weapons and some of the armour slightly wrong.

The Seljuks were always armed with sabers. I don't really see sabers on the Seljuk troopers in BC.

The Seljuks also wore 'war masks' which covered their faces, much like the Kypchak Confederacy in BC already. They were also heavy users of chainmail.

It was said that the Great Seljuks were fanatical warriors, but I do not really see too much of that in BC. It seems that factions like the Makurians and Ghorids are more fanatical.

By the way, I think you lot have done an excellent job, I'd just like to see the Seljuks improved a bit more. Thanks.

[Big Pacha]

Hey it's not that bad

You're right on most of it but let's balance:

- Sabers: named Yatagan, they should equip all turkish troops with curved blades (not sabers see below) and I too don't see why some turks have straight swords. Inaccurate, but minor. Note that the curve is quite special:

Maybe that's why you see straight blades, the curving isn't right in BC.

- War "masks": in fact facial covers reproducing a human face, part of the eastern full helmet. Far from being a Seljuk specific, that was only for the elite warriors as a pricy martial work of art. Actually the simple fact of wearing a full helmet indicates you're an elite seljuk warrior or a noble. As you can see they have some, specially the seljuk nobles. The heavy cavalry + bodyguards should have some too, but certainly not all the army! Most turks didn't wear helmets, or a small conical protection covered by a turban. This one is from the mid-XV century (oldest I could find), so imagine in the late XII century!



- Fanatical Seljuks: they're powerful enough like that and they're supposed to be on their decline before getting pushed west by the Mongols.
In fact Seljuks were described as fanaticals by the christian crusaders, who justified the 1099 Jerusalem massacre and the 1st crusade in retaliation to the "turkish intolerance". Later on, it's true the great sukltan Nur Ad Din was far from being open minded but these were the times. Seljuks were not more fanatical than, let's say, crusaders ! That means a lot, but like all others not more.

In the end, note that the Seljuks were in Persia before the mongol invasions. This means they drove out persian princes who took refuge in Ghazni, Ghori, Khwarezm, etc. and also that they had lots of persian troops with their own equipment style. You also find that on BC.

By the way, thanks very much for opening this topic so we can discuss early turkish weaponry.

[Atatürk]

Yes it's a real shame to see some of the Seljuk's with straight blades similar to those of the Christians when in fact they should have the curved blades. Thanks for educating me further in this field.

It's true that not all Seljuk warriors had war masks, it was the elites. But I can't think of a single Seljuk unit in the game with war masks, despite it being quite an iconic feature of the middle eastern elites.

It is a real, real, real, real shame that this the Seljuk Turk's are in decline in the Broken Crescent, I really, really love the Great Seljuk's and I can't really play as any other faction. If only, if only they were in their golden age.

It's quite funny actually because the Eastern Roman Empire gets destroyed by the Turks during the time frame of the Broken Crescent, but they're still one of the strongest factions in the game!

I love the Seljuk Helmets, great image you got there. Shame they're not better replicated in the game. The Seljuks in the Broken Crescent look so dull in their armour and weaponry compared to other "lesser" factions like the Sultanate of Ghazni and the Ghorid Sultanate etc.

Nonetheless, the Broken Crescent is by far my favourite mod and maybe my favourite game. Thankyou for this beautiful mod. Don't change the music, I love it. But do change the Seljuks a bit. Thanks.

[teh.frickin.pope]

It is a real, real, real, real shame that this the Seljuk Turk's are in decline in the Broken Crescent, I really, really love the Great Seljuk's and I can't really play as any other faction. If only, if only they were in their golden age.

By this time, the great Seljuk empire had pretty ceased to exist, with power firmly in the hands of individual beys and their city-states; the crusades might not have succeeded were the empire not fractured and the beys squabbling with themselves as much as anyone else.

It's quite funny actually because the Eastern Roman Empire gets destroyed by the Turks during the time frame of the Broken Crescent, but they're still one of the strongest factions in the game!

The ERE gets destroyed by the descendants of a sultan that broke away from Seljuk control, and the anatolian turks get a powerful late roster.

[Fenix_120]

And also remember those damned Italians and the fourth crusade, many historians believe that if the fourth crusade never happened that the Byzantines might have recovered and would have had the strength to fight off the Ottomans.

[Lord of Lost Socks]

And also remember those damned Italians and the fourth crusade, many historians believe that if the fourth crusade never happened that the Byzantines might have recovered and would have had the strength to fight off the Ottomans.

ergo, we shall smite the italians and create a new roman empire in Italy!

[slavic_crusader]

And also remember those damned Italians and the fourth crusade, many historians believe that if the fourth crusade never happened that the Byzantines might have recovered and would have had the strength to fight off the Ottomans.

i doubt it serbs would of taken it instead, if u were powerful enough mostly likely ottomans would fight u head on first, then u guys would been weaker and there for serbs would of taken mostly the lot also u got to think about the mongols as well they could raided constantinople form to directions north and east and before the mongols the seljuks would of weaken more.

But historically the greeks let the turks come through into balkans to take care of the serbian threat and unfortunatly for us we lost because of betrayal we would of one that fight (battle of kosovo) it was a battle 7-1 ottoman side of course (500000-70000), we even killed the emperor (who was a coward coz he stays behind his men). Also the ottomans use to take serbian children to turkey, convert them and train them to become blood thirsty warriors and played an important role in the siege of constantinople.

Anyways whats done is done u cant change that execpt in a game lol

[Atatürk]

By this time, the great Seljuk empire had pretty ceased to exist,

Great!

So just when I can finally get the chance to play as my favourite faction, the Great Seljuk's, it is when they're almost destroyed. Well that's just great then, isn't it?!

But just because they're diminished doesn't mean they use straight blades and don't wear the chainmail with the iconic Seljuk helmets.

[TheLastPrivate]

It is a real, real, real, real shame that this the Seljuk Turk's are in decline in the Broken Crescent, I really, really love the Great Seljuk's and I can't really play as any other faction. If only, if only they were in their golden age.

In Broken Crescent, the future of whatever dynasty lies in your hands..

Go and revive the golden age of the Seljuks!

[mastaace]

true and good arguments. got you're first rep point!

[Otsman]

i did, but then the ghorids obliterated me

[slavic_crusader]

i thought serbs and greeks used sabers and middle-eastern nations used scimaters, am i right? coz sabers r more of a greek style sword according the serbian saber. yet i know serbia is not in BC but im just saying.

Anyways great mod one of my favourites and i cant wait till 1.5 comes out!

[Atatürk]

i thought serbs and greeks used sabers and middle-eastern nations used scimaters, am i right? coz sabers r more of a greek style sword according the serbian saber. yet i know serbia is not in BC but im just saying.

Anyways great mod one of my favourites and i cant wait till 1.5 comes out!

You're right in thinking the Arabs used scimitars.

But the Turkish saber is quite iconic also.

[teh.frickin.pope]

i thought serbs and greeks used sabers and middle-eastern nations used scimaters, am i right? coz sabers r more of a greek style sword according the serbian saber. yet i know serbia is not in BC but im just saying.

Anyways great mod one of my favourites and i cant wait till 1.5 comes out!

The scimitar did not actually come into heavy use amongst arabs until much after BC's time frame, during this period they mostly used straight swords, as BC portrays it.

[Atatürk]

The scimitar did not actually come into heavy use amongst arabs until much after BC's time frame, during this period they mostly used straight swords, as BC portrays it.

The Turks have never ever used straight swords. They use sabers.

[Big Pacha]

Has anybody seen the pics? They're not straight swords or scimitars but turkish yatagans. About arabic "straight swords": they were short swords and certainly far from european style, long swords were indeed curved blades.

About helmets: you will note that Seljuk heavy/elite unite have them in BC: Seljuk nobles and the heavy cav. as you signature pic shows. Ok they're not detailed like the Kypchaks but then complain to the graphist

[Copperknickers II]

The scimitar did not actually come into heavy use amongst arabs until much after BC's time frame, during this period they mostly used straight swords, as BC portrays it.

The Turks were certainly not Arabs. The Muslim armies could vary hugely from the Central Asian Tribes such as the Oighuz, to the Berbers or the Fatimids.

All Muslim curved swords are descended from the Turko-Mongol sabre, a heavy slightly curved medium length sword.

By 1200, the curved sword was the main weapon of choice for many middle-eastern soldiers. The Turks themselves used variants of this, such as the Khilij (used in Anatolia by the Sultanate of Rum from C.1250).

However, there were many other swords used in Egypt, Persia and Arabia. The original Arab (pre-Turko-Mongol Invasion) weapon was a straight double-edged sword, dating back for a thousand years. However by the time of BC this had been mainly replaced by the Saif, a variation of the Turko-Mongol saber:

Basically, there were few to no straight swords left in Outremer at this time, even the Europeans could often be found with specially crafted Falchions.

[Manco]

Basically, there were few to no straight swords left in Outremer at this time, even the Europeans could often be found with specially crafted Falchions.

But falchions were not a descendant of the curved blades of the Turks and other scimitars. They also had quite a different role in battle.
Curved swords in the Middle East were largely cavalry weapons and used to fight against the masses of infantry (comparatively lesser armoured soldiers); against heavily armoured soldiers maces and the like would have been preferred.
The falchion on the other hand was predominantly an infantry weapon and it's role was more or less to bridge the gap between axes and other swords, combining slashing damage with the weight to penetrate armours.

[teh.frickin.pope]

The Turks were certainly not Arabs. The Muslim armies could vary hugely from the Central Asian Tribes such as the Oighuz, to the berbers or the Fatimids.

The Turks have never ever used straight swords. They use sabers.

I meant to imply neither, I was simply being a bit of an anal history douche

About Arabic "straight swords": they were short swords and certainly far from European style, long swords were indeed curved blades.

Again, I did not mean to imply anything like that. They were curved, but much less dramatically than scimitars, and even their straight swords did not resemble the cruciform swords of Latin Europe.

[Big Pacha]

I 100% agree with Copperknickers about time scale and diversity of oriental weaponry.

So here are the REAL sword during Broken Crescent's times, just read and see my article on Oriental Blades Illustrated

Enjoy ^^