Regarding Pre-Marian armies

[Snowball]

I think we should decide how to play it, retrain them forever, or disband to mimic history?

I would like to hear everyone's view on this, and if there is anything with the game mechanics that would support either view.

[Grandis Latro]

I actually think we should take a page out of the EB house rules and instead of retraining them, start merging fresh troops with the veteran ones, it will dilute the experience and i think it would be satisfactory RP as far as, troops going home, mixing in fresh ones etc and far less expensive than disbanding the entire thing. As even historically I dont think they disbanded the ENTIRE army. Though I could be wrong.

[Xavier Dragnesi]

No I don't think they ever disbanded the whole thing either. In my personal campaigns, I usually did far more unit merging that retraining, especially when money was tight. I think the best system for us to go for, is to fight with units until two of them can be merged together to make only one. Then another whole new one can be trained to replace the one that is now gone.

[Pontifex Maximus]

I say retrain them. The game isn't entirely historically accurate so we don't have to be.

[Sir James the Good]

is there anything with the game mechanics that would support either view

Yes.

Ever wondered why Polybian Principes are somewhat-superior to Cohors Reformata yet cost considerably less?

Principes, some of whom technically having experience from the get-go, are men in their prime by Roman standards. Marius’ mules, to use the slang term, were recruited at a very young age and as such have the prime of their life ahead of them. During that time they will gather experience that the principes should not accumulate (beyond a certain point) as they should not be in the field nearly as long. It would be in keeping with the overall philosophy of EB if this was done in protest of the image that professional Roman legionaries were somehow invincible from the moment they took the sacramentum. Take Caesar for instance, it took eight years of the mutual-building of trust for his legions to develop the loyalty to follow him across the Rubicon.

There we have it—Principes are amateurs, Cohors Reformata are professionals. If we don’t role-play them as such, the EB stat system will be out of-whack. We will have no incentive to recruit professional legions after the Marian reforms because it is cheaper and more effective to just use Polybian legions as professionals.

As even historically I dont think they disbanded the ENTIRE army.

No I don't think they ever disbanded the whole thing either.

Early and Mid-Republican legions disbanded after each campaign and had to be levied anew by the Consuls and placed under new officers for each new campaign. Wasteful and inefficient? Yes, but the Romans in general preferred this system to a standing army until Marius was elected Consul in 107 BC. Roman amateurism was largely responsible for allowing Hannibal to roam around Italia unmatched by any Roman force during the Second Punic War. Once Rome finally developed a semi-professional army under Scipio Africanus, the tide turned.

So while it is annoying to have to disband legions after each campaign and train new ones afresh, it is the Roman way (at least until the Marian reforms). Perhaps we can make an exception for far off wars under a particularly charismatic general, as did the Romans, but if our resolve breaks every time disbanding our legions interferes with our plans then our army is no longer a citizen-levy, it is a standing, professional force. And if this is the case then there is no point in distinguishing between Equites, Triarii, Principes, Hastati, and Velites because these are primarily class and age distinctions—which are nonexistent in a standing army. Why don’t we just edit the campaign script and enact the Marian reforms now?

This is ridiculous. Our army is a militia, let’s play it like one. If you need a stronger legion, train a new one to relieve the old one. Bring the boys back home and disband them in the provinces from which they came (which is easy thanks to konny’s minimod).

[Grandis Latro]

Ok lets put this to a vote shall we? the way i see it we have four choices

1) Continue to retrain troops, and simply trade them out with reform troops
2) Merge fresh recruits with veterans to dilute the experience, when reforms come trade them out
3) Merge veterans with veterans, ie half a stack in the field with another half a stack in the field, then recruit green troops to stand on their own
4) Use strict historical basis and disband whole legions after campaign and/or after a period of time (10 years seems to be historical), then if we are attacked take the time to raise a whole legion

I think its important we decide what to do we could also have an optional 5th choice that says it is the Consul's discretion, If a moderator could poll this up that would be great, feel free to change my wording

[Snowball]

4

[Sir James the Good]

Quattuor!

I think the best historical basis is to disband our legion after each campaign. Ideally, the consuls should begin levying a new legion right now for our upcoming invasion of Corsica and Sardinia and the individual units of our Sicilian legion should break up and disband in their home provinces (thanks to konny's allied legions mod, this will be easy to figure out because the names of the provinces in which they were levied are attached). Of course, we have already passed a bill which specifies that we are to retrain our Sicilian legion and reuse it, so perhaps we could wait till our next campaign to institute this policy.

[Snowball]

aye

[Grandis Latro]

We really need an official poll on this...

[Snowball]

and winter`s go ahead? i dunno how he feels about it xD

[Sir James the Good]

I doubt any of the moderators support disbanding the legions after each campaign, so don't expect an official poll any time soon.

[We shall fwee...Wode]

I support it. And even if winter disagrees personally, there will still be a poll I'm sure.

[Pontifex Maximus]

poll added.

And as a long time EB player I am really against disbanding armies. It is suicide for several reasons:

1. We will be disbanding legions with some sort of experience and then be wasting money to train raw troops

2. We need our veterans if we have any hope of defeating barbarian units.

3. We don't have the money to train entirely new legions after we finish a campaign.