A few round of BRG II

[Lioneljoe]

I have played a few rounds of BRG II as the Domain of Soissons. I choice them because they are Roman, they are small and manageable, and they have a compelling back story. I used the main campaign with four year scripts.
To have any chance of success, a player should understand that BRGII is an economic game with a military aspect. I found that building too large an army early and being too aggressive with lead to collapse even though you may have initial success.
My most successful strategy was concentrating on economic buildings, keeping the army small and concluding trading treaties with every faction I could reach. I was very careful in choosing my war objectives. The early 500s saw me as the ruler of Gaul from west Germania to the Iberian Peninsula. I even took Northern Italy to include Ravenna from the Vandals.
While I was establishing myself as the Master of the West my fellow Roman factions were not faring as well. The West Roman lost everything but Italy Rome south. The East was carved up by the Goths who took the Balkans and Greece to include Constantinople and the Sassinids who took the Levant and Anatolia. They only had a few islands and North Africa. The Roman British factions came under the heel of the Saxons.
All would not be well though. The powerful Goths spilled into Northern Italy and took Ravenna from me. The loss of income and trade put me heaving into deficit spending. My cities were growing restless from the lack of public works; my armies were spread to thin to repel the invaders. The long slow decline had begun. …
My hats off to Rio and his friends for their hard work putting this together. My thanks to you for all of the enjoyment I am getting from the game.
I do have a couple of questions: I cannot build ships with the D of S? Is this a deliberate limitation to them? Diplomacy, are there population morale rewards and penalties from making and breaking treaties and alliance?

[Riothamus]

I have played a few rounds of BRG II as the Domain of Soissons. I choice them because they are Roman, they are small and manageable, and they have a compelling back story. I used the main campaign with four year scripts.
To have any chance of success, a player should understand that BRGII is an economic game with a military aspect. I found that building too large an army early and being too aggressive with lead to collapse even though you may have initial success.
My most successful strategy was concentrating on economic buildings, keeping the army small and concluding trading treaties with every faction I could reach. I was very careful in choosing my war objectives. The early 500s saw me as the ruler of Gaul from west Germania to the Iberian Peninsula. I even took Northern Italy to include Ravenna from the Vandals.
While I was establishing myself as the Master of the West my fellow Roman factions were not faring as well. The West Roman lost everything but Italy Rome south. The East was carved up by the Goths who took the Balkans and Greece to include Constantinople and the Sassinids who took the Levant and Anatolia. They only had a few islands and North Africa. The Roman British factions came under the heel of the Saxons.
All would not be well though. The powerful Goths spilled into Northern Italy and took Ravenna from me. The loss of income and trade put me heaving into deficit spending. My cities were growing restless from the lack of public works; my armies were spread to thin to repel the invaders. The long slow decline had begun. …
My hats off to Rio and his friends for their hard work putting this together. My thanks to you for all of the enjoyment I am getting from the game.
I do have a couple of questions: I cannot build ships with the D of S? Is this a deliberate limitation to them? Diplomacy, are there population morale rewards and penalties from making and breaking treaties and alliance?

What you experienced with the thought(don't want to presume arrogance) with such a powerful kingdom that now the world was yours. I think a major problem with the RTW game is that once you get rolling, sort of speak the work is yours.I deliberately want the player to experience the difficulties of once seemingly controlling a huge Empire as it would be in real history, the incredible difficulties of maintaining it and still expanding it, especially as the Romans. If you can then its certainly Beyond Roman Glory

I run into the most bazaar things with such as why you cant build ships lol.
You absolutely should be able to build ships as the Domain of Soissons. They are expensive though but also for all factions.

Diplomacy..geeze, its so limited in bi 1.6.and seemingly inconsistent. Don't think it does anything to pop moral..just can really affect trade income

A wonderful post.. thank you for capturing the essence of the game Lioneljoe


EDIT I'm blown away that I didn't have the empire_east_rebels: Domain of Soisson with ship recruit ability lol

Go to rio/data/export_descr_unit

Can be done as such..just add , empire_east_rebels as I done so.


type naval biremes

ownership empire_west, empire_east, eastern, romano_british, empire_west_rebels, slave, empire_east_rebels

type naval triremes

ownership empire_west, empire_east, eastern, romano_british, empire_west_rebels, slave, empire_east_rebels

type naval triremes

ownership empire_west, empire_east, eastern, romano_british, empire_west_rebels, slave, empire_east_rebels

type naval quinquiremes

ownership empire_west, empire_east, eastern, romano_british, empire_west_rebels, slave, empire_east_rebels

[margio]

Ave Lioneljoe,
I completely agree that, mainly for Roman Factions, it’s a matter of economic/happiness micromanagement to avoid collapse and bankrupcy of your empire/kingdom. I’m playing Western Roman Empire (if it can still so named in 463AD…), and I had to take care for almost eight years only of economy and happiness, before to enlist an army enough strong to be successful on conquest. But before I had also to leave towns beyond the Alps, enlist units just enough to keep order in towns, focus on economic buildings only(with some for happiness…) and even my fighting army is mainly made by barbarians troops… Anyway despite of a nice treasury, some of my towns have negative income for their own, but only the towns in Italy that I have from the beginning :hmmm:...
How is the income of your towns themselves? If negative is even for the conquered towns too?
I noticed also that the capture of specific towns could give a strong help to economy (for me was Salona till now…).
I was anyway lucky, because others factions were not aggressive versus my lands and left me "work", so now WRE have Salona and Ulpia, Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily captured, and I was dealing with Vandals in North Africa. But there was an "inappropriate" loyalist revolt in Cadiz, and I have to choose if call back my army to deal with Visigoths or enlist a new one…

My compliments for your success for your DoS Campaign, because in my campaign DoS started well but they were attacked by Visigoths and Franks, getting the final blow from Romano Britones. Now they have two/three towns left, but they are attacked from everywhere…
See you soon with images of your DoS Campaign…

ayeaye Sir

[Incontinenta Buttox]

I have had to start a new WRE campaign. As in my last effort, I found out to my cost that the economy goes to hell after a few turns. Adopting three generals didn't help.

As in IBRR. It seems that the first turn is critical. Take the wrong aqction in the first turn and recovery will be impossible. So any tips would be appreciated.

It would seem wise to me that the first buildings to construct would be christian Shrines and Land Clearance?

Should I be disbanding any troops? I would rather not. But all those comitatenses units are expensive. I thought it might be good to recruit 6-8 units of foederati, and with the comitatenses, would give me enough infantry for two field armies. One to reconquer Corsica, Sardinia, and Sicily. The other to tackle the Ostrogoths and try to hold Salona.

[Riothamus]

I have had to start a new WRE campaign. As in my last effort, I found out to my cost that the economy goes to hell after a few turns. Adopting three generals didn't help.

As in IBRR. It seems that the first turn is critical. Take the wrong aqction in the first turn and recovery will be impossible. So any tips would be appreciated.

It would seem wise to me that the first buildings to construct would be christian Shrines and Land Clearance?

Should I be disbanding any troops? I would rather not. But all those comitatenses units are expensive. I thought it might be good to recruit 6-8 units of foederati, and with the comitatenses, would give me enough infantry for two field armies. One to reconquer Corsica, Sardinia, and Sicily. The other to tackle the Ostrogoths and try to hold Salona.

Don't recommend it..Game not designed to disband but it is designed to reshape your Roman army in the west. The foederati play an important role and use them at the start but as your econ increases you will have to start implementing stronger Roman heavy infantry to fight the now equal barbarian heavy troops that will be attacking you soon

[Incontinenta Buttox]

Ok what gives here?

I am getting hammered in my Saxon campagn financially. I have no decent troops. I can't even muster a small army because I need every unit as a garrison. The Romano British e can besiege me at will because all my settlements are on the verge of rebellion. And I cqan do nothing to stop them.

I took London and sacked the place which gave me a boost, but eneded up having to spend most of it on reparing buildings.

This is a very very hard mod. Can anyone give any advice on what is best to build the first turn before I become broke?

It's like a RTW credit crunch. And my faction leader is Gordon Brown. At least it would explain all the debt!

[Riothamus]

Ok what gives here?

I am getting hammered in my Saxon campagn financially. I have no decent troops. I can't even muster a small army because I need every unit as a garrison. The Romano British e can besiege me at will because all my settlements are on the verge of rebellion. And I cqan do nothing to stop them.

I took London and sacked the place which gave me a boost, but eneded up having to spend most of it on reparing buildings.

This is a very very hard mod. Can anyone give any advice on what is best to build the first turn before I become broke?

It's like a RTW credit crunch. And my faction leader is Gordon Brown. At least it would explain all the debt!

As the Saxons you need to fight and prove your worthiness first by conquering British lands,establishing a kingdom and becoming through the ancillary a Bretwalda ..then focus on your economy. Of any faction the Saxons must be very aggressive at the start.

There are serious neg modified penalties for conquering British lands so of any faction to exterminate the population this would be the one. The Saxons were not very nice especially as noted in their rebellions in Britain lol

Personify yourself in the Saxon role. They are on the verge of carving out a kingdom.. unlike the other factions who are established. They are still very much like mercenaries warriors and pilgrim farmers looking for a king to be proud of in a very hostile environment. The only way to survive is to take what they need.

[Incontinenta Buttox]

Right you are then. Too bad my army won a Pyhrric victory in the first turn. I never recovered from that.

Can you recommend a faction tomplay as where the economy isn't such a struggle?

[margio]

Right you are then. Too bad my army won a Pyhrric victory in the first turn. I never recovered from that.

Can you recommend a faction tomplay as where the economy isn't such a struggle?

Hi Incontinenta Buttox,
"unfortunately" ... there is no faction in BRG II that doesn’t have economy to manage as base for a strong empire that wants to dominate the known world...
BTW I think that Visigoths and Ostrogoths (maybe Franks too…) have the right mix between starting lands, units costs, quick and high potential development.
They have a medium number of towns from the beginning. A big empire is "obliged" to micromanage its economy immediately to avoid to lose lands after lands, and a small kingdom is obliged to start to conquer from the beginning to have lands to increase kingdom.
They have a medium units costs, that could allow them to start conquest already with their best units, to have them with high attack and defense factors when they will fight with the strongest enemies. Furthermore Visigoths on south and Ostrogoths to the east (but Salona too…) have lands owned by Rebels and rich. That can be an advantage, because once captured one town, you don’t have the others of the same faction that will attack you. Sending spies to look for richest or poorest defended helps your plans. Finally their spears and swords are strong enough to defend you towns and don’t have high costs.
So while capturing lands, they don’t have too much money to spend to upkeep their armies and even their general are not so expensive and the ones with at least 2 points on management can "push" the development of your towns. Furthermore following specific buildings tree for each towns can help. I mean that for the Capital town a military/economy tree (2 military / 1 economy) can be followed without bankrupcy risk, while the other towns are focused on economy. Then the contrary it can be made. BTW don’t forget happiness and health sometime…
For Ostrogoths there is the risk to be attacked by ERE, but while playing BRG I, they asked for alliance some times or they attacked, so it depends…
I didn’t play Bulgars, Slavs or Sassanids, so I cannot "write" about those factions, but it could be a matter of time …

ayeaye Sir

[Draco Borealis]

I played DoS for cuple of years, the mod is playing very nice without the glitches or crashes mainly becouse this time I instaled it on fresh copy of RTW.
One think i miss is lack of the pseudocomitanensis, I know that the last of real Galic field army was lost under Awitus but Aegidius being apointed magister militum by Majorian shud have atleast a few lanciari units taken from Italy. Tranfering a few units out of limitanei and tranforming them into heavy infantry shud not be beyound his abilities as the former were trained and equiped just like the later. Not to speaking about Romano British who despite being cut off from empire for fifty years still have those cool British Legions. :hmmm:

[Riothamus]

I played DoS for cuple of years, the mod is playing very nice without the glitches or crashes mainly becouse this time I instaled it on fresh copy of RTW.
One think i miss is lack of the pseudocomitanensis, I know that the last of real Galic field army was lost under Awitus but Aegidius being apointed magister militum by Majorian shud have atleast a few lanciari units taken from Italy. Tranfering a few units out of limitanei and tranforming them into heavy infantry shud not be beyound his abilities as the former were trained and equiped just like the later. Not to speaking about Romano British who despite being cut off from empire for fifty years still have those cool British Legions. :hmmm:

:hmmm: Could make soissons sort of a remote bastion place to build theses types units.

[seriousbusiness]

Yes, please either give Soissons Pseudos or improve the limitanei defence stat. They are never worth using right now since the foederati have almost the same stats and upkeep. Auxilia Palatinae are too expensive to be used - my DoS army consists purely of foederati and some equites sagittarii with occasionally a general. Pseudos might prove a happy medium and help Soissons establish a reliable army than constantly depending on spamming foederati to win (quite a gamble)

Oh, and thanks for informing us of the ship situation. I was wondering if I was missing something.

[Riothamus]

Yes, please either give Soissons Pseudos or improve the limitanei defence stat. They are never worth using right now since the foederati have almost the same stats and upkeep. Auxilia Palatinae are too expensive to be used - my DoS army consists purely of foederati and some equites sagittarii with occasionally a general. Pseudos might prove a happy medium and help Soissons establish a reliable army than constantly depending on spamming foederati to win (quite a gamble)

Oh, and thanks for informing us of the ship situation. I was wondering if I was missing something.

Foederati I wanted to make a solid reliable unit to use during this time. It was the most commonly unit used by the the WRE during this time...Aetius and Aegidius relied heavily on them. The idea though is to eventually build your army to a less dependance on them There are also other foederati units such as the foot noble who are a powerful infantry unit. The Domain of Soissons currently can recruit Pseudos and legio units but as is only in current Roman lands. but Soissons makes a viable, specific region where I could make that exception

[seriousbusiness]

The Domain of Soissons currently can recruit Pseudos and legio units but as is only in current Roman lands. but Soissons makes a viable, specific region where I could make that exception

Like you said the Brits can recruit Brit Legions in most (if not all) cities so it seems very odd Gaul is not capable of raising them too. The Roman influence on Gaul was greater than that on Britannia so surely the mod should reflect that. Giving most/all provinces access to pseudos and a handful of the Gallic provinces full comitatenses would help with that. Also they are so expensive to upkeep that obviously they will make only a minority of your forces by necessity - there is no need to make them flatly unrecruitable.

Having only or mostly ordinary foederati against a visigothic invasion is crippling. In a battle of gothic warriors vs foederati unless you can fight in a forest (often you can't) the gothics will almost always win or you will win at such a cost you can not possibly consolidate your position. Having pseudos would help that sort of situation. Either that or I've just had rotten luck.

Also unexpectedly going to war with a faction you heavily rely on for trade can be cataclysmic. I just ended up at war with the Anglo/Saxon/Jutes by losing Saxony in a rebellion and it screwed my economy and I could suddenly only afford a third of my army, such was the phenominal dependence on 1-2 cities' trade with one particular faction. Diversifying trade to avoid situations like that would help. Other than that the balance is quite good now, with genuinely challenging battles with a strong element of strategy. A surprise war and blockade (even one fleet of ~20 sailors!) can have very serious effects costing many thousands of denarii spiralling you deep int he red and leaving you pretty helpless to stop them. Speaking of which, wasn't the solidus the currency of choice in these times? Or maybe the Roman mint had badly collapsed to the point that successor mints were more prevalent. It bares consideration.

[Riothamus]

Like you said the Brits can recruit Brit Legions in most (if not all) cities so it seems very odd Gaul is not capable of raising them too. The Roman influence on Gaul was greater than that on Britannia so surely the mod should reflect that. Giving most/all provinces access to pseudos and a handful of the Gallic provinces full comitatenses would help with that. Also they are so expensive to upkeep that obviously they will make only a minority of your forces by necessity - there is no need to make them flatly unrecruitable.

Having only or mostly ordinary foederati against a visigothic invasion is crippling. In a battle of gothic warriors vs foederati unless you can fight in a forest (often you can't) the gothics will almost always win or you will win at such a cost you can not possibly consolidate your position. Having pseudos would help that sort of situation. Either that or I've just had rotten luck.

Also unexpectedly going to war with a faction you heavily rely on for trade can be cataclysmic. I just ended up at war with the Anglo/Saxon/Jutes by losing Saxony in a rebellion and it screwed my economy and I could suddenly only afford a third of my army, such was the phenominal dependence on 1-2 cities' trade with one particular faction. Diversifying trade to avoid situations like that would help. Other than that the balance is quite good now, with genuinely challenging battles with a strong element of strategy. A surprise war and blockade (even one fleet of ~20 sailors!) can have very serious effects costing many thousands of denarii spiralling you deep int he red and leaving you pretty helpless to stop them. Speaking of which, wasn't the solidus the currency of choice in these times? Or maybe the Roman mint had badly collapsed to the point that successor mints were more prevalent. It bares consideration.

This is very interesting to me seriousbusiness, and a great topic

Late Roman Warlords, by Penny MacGeorge throws some light on this.

The situation in Northern Gaul at the time of Aegidius was politically and militarily complex. I'm all for continuing a Roman like world n Soissons but out side of it I see it as it being surrounded by many sub type kingdoms that were in control by the local land owners. Aegidius I think held sway over theses surrounding areas in part cause he did most likely have a Roman Gallic field army a personal body guard of buccellari and a powerful resource base in Soissons. I've allowed a greater flexibility in allowing Aegidius..The Domain of Soissons, to recruit Foederati and there are some powerful foederati type units available to recruit foederati nobles and foederati heavy infantry. May need to create an Alan foederati unit for there as there was a strong presence of them there too. I want to better reflect this though. This can certainly be done better I'm sure.

Trade and having allies I want to be very significant part of the game. A very tactical part of the game. Unfortunately diplomacy can be shaky to say the least and disrupts the econ significantly but as a player I want those decisions involved to be always crucial.

Do think your right about the solidus

[Draco Borealis]

Comes Paulus to ilustrius Riothamus rex Britanorum Salve!
Pseudos were recruited from limitanei as all roman soldiers were trained with using both spear, javelins and spatha. Limitanei usualy making border patrols or defending the walls were making greater use of spear and light equpment but they had some heavier armor stored in forts. Converting them to pseudos was only change of unit tactic. sadly RTR engine cannot portray the late battle formation with front ranks using armor and shields, deeper ranks using shields and spears and guys on rear throwing javelins and shooting bows all men from one regiment. So I just edited export_descr_buildings.txt to recruit pseudos and lanciari in Gaul. I have only eight units of them in Aegidus field army but I manged to throw Franks beyound Rhine, take Aquitania from Goths and Chase the Burgunds from South Gaul. Now I have choice either to strike the Goths in Touluse and try to take Spain back or take Arles and march on Ravenna but I cannot afford to have war with both becouse my pure Roman army ( I don't use barbarian troops it was the root of colapse) is fricking expensive (despite being 95% limitanei and pedites romanes crap). Aegidus is geting older so I must decide quickly before the trecherous usurpers from Ravenna will bribe crushed now barbarians to attack me; Any advice?
P.S. I love the high cost upkeep, now every soldier count and every battle is decisive, even AI don't cheat and spawns countless stack of low ranks speamen as in vanilla.

[seriousbusiness]

The Burgundii spear warbands and a few others might be buffed just a little, too. They're pretty hopeless in some battles. Then again, I have also been defeated by them nearly as much, so.

[Vates Ignifer]

I think I can chime in here and whine a little how terribly hard I find this mod. Up to now I've played IBFD:RR and was quite successful building up a Frankish Empire, by ~460 spanning from Scandinavia to Corsica and from Iberia to Dacia. Eventually it became a bit boring because I had broken the Huns' spine and was too well set up to be challenged by any of my enemies.
So I thought I'd switch to BRG2. Boy am I getting my ass spanked.

First I tried playing Saxons 463, trying to quickly capture some smaller British cities while using my starting funds to improve my economy. Bang, after a few turns I was broke.

Then I thought I'd try the Irish Celts 463 because I have some peace and quiet there and can take my time to build up the economy and get the hang of it. At first I managed to make a profit which invested in more infrastructure (roads, food trade, etc). And suddenly, from one turn to the next, without _any_ discernible reason - BANG! suddenly I start losing money instead of making more. oÔ I drop into the red numbers, can't build anything new, and can't do anything about it.

Then I thought I'd just have a peek at the Justinian Campaign. Half of my ERE cities close to rioting. For a few of them it was enough to lower taxes and raise one or two militias, but all the other ones had such a low rating it was impossible to do anything about it. I ordered construction of some Public Order buildings and levvied some police, but after turn 2 - before it was even mathematically possible to increase Public Order beyond Red - about five cities kicked me out and became rebels. And at the start of turn three I was at -120.000$. Then I quit without saving.

A little starting aid, please. How do I get going? With ANY faction?

[Riothamus]

I think I can chime in here and whine a little how terribly hard I find this mod. Up to now I've played IBFD:RR and was quite successful building up a Frankish Empire, by ~460 spanning from Scandinavia to Corsica and from Iberia to Dacia. Eventually it became a bit boring because I had broken the Huns' spine and was too well set up to be challenged by any of my enemies.
So I thought I'd switch to BRG2. Boy am I getting my ass spanked.

First I tried playing Saxons 463, trying to quickly capture some smaller British cities while using my starting funds to improve my economy. Bang, after a few turns I was broke.

Then I thought I'd try the Irish Celts 463 because I have some peace and quiet there and can take my time to build up the economy and get the hang of it. At first I managed to make a profit which invested in more infrastructure (roads, food trade, etc). And suddenly, from one turn to the next, without _any_ discernible reason - BANG! suddenly I start losing money instead of making more. oÔ I drop into the red numbers, can't build anything new, and can't do anything about it.

Then I thought I'd just have a peek at the Justinian Campaign. Half of my ERE cities close to rioting. For a few of them it was enough to lower taxes and raise one or two militias, but all the other ones had such a low rating it was impossible to do anything about it. I ordered construction of some Public Order buildings and levvied some police, but after turn 2 - before it was even mathematically possible to increase Public Order beyond Red - about five cities kicked me out and became rebels. And at the start of turn three I was at -120.000$. Then I quit without saving.

A little starting aid, please. How do I get going? With ANY faction?

Hi Vates Ignifer and welcome

-The Justinian provincial mod is currently a beta and certainly needs adjusting and balancing and a great deal of 2d and 3d modeling. It will take a bit of work and time to right the ship...make it balanced with the economic system that runs the other two campaigns

-A few things to look for in this mod to help your income is at the start of the game watch out for adopting warlords. They are very expensive. Trade vigorously or fight vigorously... no trade can mean disaster so you will have to take over nearby lands. Also make sure your ports are free from blockades especially your lucrative capital cities. And keeping armies are very expensive.

-Playing the Saxons you must be brutal and exterminate cities for they will not be happy under the Saxons. I would play them to conquer then build and then conquer. Playing the Saxons can be very difficult if your not brutally conquering lands and expanding.

-Playing the Gaels you must eventually expand into Scotland(Picland) I'm somewhat surprised you had difficulty with them..Are you playing on the hardest levels? You can trade with the several factions around Britain and still be at war against the Picts and expand. You really don't need large armies on the British Island so be careful of this for it will drain your coffers..just be constantly aware of your military expenditure for upkeep of armies in this mod are costly.

Saying all that you are playing the harder factions in the Game.

The easier factions you might want to try are the
-Franks
-Visigoths
-Ostrogoths
-Vandals

Hope some of this helps..

[Vates Ignifer]

Hey Rio, thanks for the quick response. =)

So, exterminating the populace after conquering a foreign culture city is par of the course? Or just for a select few factions? I mean, historically the Germanic factions didn't large-scale massacre the populace of southern Europe either and were accepted as new rulers pretty soon.

Concerning the Gaels, I think there may actually be a bug or two in there. For example one of my generals had just a few battle-related traits (+1 Command when attacking etc), but moving him into a city dropped PO to red immediately. Well and as I said, after a few turns (maybe 6 or 8) all of a sudden my income broke away, although I hadn't recruited a single unit (in fact disbanded a few starting units) and only built buildings that should have increased my income.
(Btw I actually play on the medium difficulty levels)

Meanwhile I started a Frankish campaign and indeed it appears to be much easier. After two years or so I already have 50K in my coffers, took Ratomagus and slew Aegidius. Stupid DOS Romans, I offer them Trade Rights and they attack me the next turn. :p
However atm I'm not overly excited by the Frankish units... got spoiled by the Frankeska Heriskara of RR I guess.

Oh btw, what the hell is the difference between the Briton Romanes and Romano British? I mean why are there two factions of those?