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Thread: Wedge Formation

  1. #1

    Default Wedge Formation

    Haven't really tested it yet because right now I'm trying to get that damn BMDB to stop crashing my battles, so anyone know what it does exactly?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    Quote Originally Posted by France View Post
    Haven't really tested it yet because right now I'm trying to get that damn BMDB to stop crashing my battles, so anyone know what it does exactly?
    It quickly kills the captain of your unit which at the time are using Wedge Formation . Seriously that ability are quite handy in suicide.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    I kinda noticed from past experiences, but what can it do if it's not your General's unit?
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    I remember reading from somewhere in our forum that I supposed to help you pass through the crow with less damage than normal. So the use of Wedge Formation might lie in AI's "Calculating damage mechanic". And I assume you know how unrealistic the "Calculating Dammage Mechanic" can be: a group of Peasant both get their face hit with flaming arrows, but only some of them die. WTF ???

    Edit: maybe CA developer intended that captain with his super human ability can withstand the damage, therefore he would lead the troop through the enemy line. The fact turn out more dramatically >_>
    Last edited by Sumonious; December 12, 2008 at 11:18 PM.
    KNOWN FACTS: Earth rotates around the sun, water freeze at 273 Ko, EA is absolutely evil.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    Quote Originally Posted by Sumonious View Post
    I remember reading from somewhere in our forum that I supposed to help you pass through the crow with less damage than normal. So the use of Wedge Formation might lie in AI's "Calculating damage mechanic". And I assume you know how unrealistic the "Calculating Dammage Mechanic" can be: a group of Peasant both get their face hit with flaming arrows, but only some of them die. WTF ???

    Edit: maybe CA developer intended that captain with his super human ability can withstand the damage, therefore he would lead the troop through the enemy line. The fact turn out more dramatically >_>
    Lol
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  6. #6
    hitokiri2486's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    Wedges are supposed to be able to breaking through an enemy line at a single point, and basically divide the enemy into two halves. Game-mechanic wise, it's suppose to cause massive morale drop in the unit that gets charged, and they will route fairly quickly as a reuslt.

    Of course, that's what it's supposed to do. For some reason, the wedge formation works horribly in the vanilla game; you need to mod and tweak some files concerning horse mass, charge distance, and unit radii in order to get the charges to actually work. If you want a good wedge formation/good cavalry charge, there's a few threads lying around with attached text files. I think I just downloaded it off of a mod (like SSTC or something) and used that instead.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    Does SS 6.1 alter the wedge formation to be any good?
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  8. #8
    Angrychris's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    never heard or saw good things

    Leave it to the modder to perfect the works of the paid developers for no profit at all.

  9. #9
    Galain_Ironhide's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    In my experience the wedge does not work very effectively in SS either. The SSTC submod changes Cav altogether but makes them spread out like brown cows out to pasture (there is a removal tool for this though) once they have completed their charge. I find having my cavalry spread out in a 2 deep formation charging into the enemy works a hell of a lot better.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    K so wedge formation is pretty much worthless, and isn't too important if it worked right anyhow. Thanks guys +rep for all of you.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    well i would say its useless, unless you have a massive cavalry charge or charge after an enemy is in combat. i never used it before simply becuase it was a hassle and half the time all it did was kill all my horses

    then one day i accidentally but them in wedge formation like this:
    i had 6 cav. units, 4 were normal 2 were in wedge the 4 engaged faster and then as i watched my other two cam crashing in and litteraly ran right over 70 or so infantry. it was one of the first times i had seen cavalry actually run people over in mass in this game. one unit ripped through and stayed there fighting while the other went all the way and attacked the generals unit behind, soon afterwards there whole army was routing. right around then i started to test things with the wedge formation.

    so i got a full stack of cavalry with my best cav. general and we went around destroying armies in the name of learning i set them all to wedge, unfortanuately the game likes to make them slightly seperated so when i prepared the battle i made them touching so it was kinda like a saw blade. when they hit the enemy line some units acted retarded and kinda just halted while others(mostly flanks) crushed through and fully encircled them. yet when i try this with say 4 or so untis they seem to just get massacred. so i would suggest wedge only if you have a large cavalry army because for some reason it works then, charging downhill, or charging enemies flanks when they are already fighting(once i had 4 units on each side, with wede, and when they made contact they ran through pretty much a whole unit lengthwise)
    so ya thats my input on the cavalry wedge, not really reliable unless you have a cavalry army or are flanking, straight up front charges rarely work(obviously they work best when the enemy is only 1-3 ranks deep, any deeper and its pretty much a suicide charge in wedge formation)

  12. #12
    Grimmy's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    Wedge formation is good for reducing the kingdom's population of spoiled, pampered, arrogant cavalrymen and thereby, keeping the prices on tavern wenches, beer and eats from getting inflated.

    In short, it's good for my infantryman's moral.

  13. #13
    Owain Glyndŵr's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    Lulz, Grimmy.... +rep for that.

    Wedge formation is pretty damn useless... the actual momentum of the charge is only transferred to one to three lances instead of, say, thirty spread across the front of the unit, flinging half of them into the air. >D


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  14. #14
    hitokiri2486's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    I found that SSTC with the spreading horses issue removed made wedges a lot more effective...to the point where I regularly use them. All thirty horses charge into the enemy and deal plenty of damage, although it works best if your wedge is more spread out; a tight wedge clusters all the horses into one spot and makes maneuverability difficult.

    When you charge with horses 2 lines abreast, you'll take some casualties before routing the enemy; now, when I use wedges, as long as I tell the horses to move past the enemy line after their initial charge, they'll cut the enemy unit in two and take 1 or 2 losses max. More often than not, the enemy unit routes while this is happening. This has worked with peasants, archers, even dismounted knights (although knights with poleaxes still destroy my cavalry no matter what), so I'd say the wedge formation has actually become useful with the right fixes.

    Of course, the vanilla wedge is useless. Everyone knows that.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    Cool stories guys, +rep o.O. But anyone got a link for the wedge fix? Or is it an entire mod?
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    Wedge is cavalry killer it must add some defence boost to unit. At least speaking of SS where armour values are high and it do counts to have plus few points on your side:-)......Try it.....4 gothic knights against 4 lancer impact can be just devastating just charge one by one into them and then push them behind the enemy you kill half of them in no time and if done properly you loose no more than 10 horses of each unit.

    I can also confirm this from MP with quapukulu on MTW2....I had 3 units plus general he had 5 units of templars or so and at the end I still had 2 unit at half strengh general almost full and one unit little under half...anyway after this he quit :-D

    Also if you like running cavalry 1v1 in custom battles head long into one each other:-D...you know AI allways gets to wedge little before charge if he considers his cav inferior.....you kill more at start but then cant get rid of the rest and at the end you still loose much anyway the point is they stay hell longer in fight and in mass cavalry battle it is handy. And in SS its good way to beat superior cav....just charge and pull men from side to other to kill them quickly and it does itself.

  17. #17
    Lysimachus's Avatar Spirit Cleric
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    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    Wedge formation gives a bonus against cavalry.

  18. #18
    Domesticus
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    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    Wedge formation gives a bonus against cavalry.
    Can you argue that?

    In general, wedge formation is meant to be used during the last minutes of the battle. I've noticed that it greatly decreases the morale of the enemy, more than charging without wedge formation toggled off. This is because the enemy (infantry) unit is cut up to two pieces, they lose the sense of "community" or such thing you know.

    So, bind the enemy infantry by your own infantry and then charge with heavy cavalry in wedge formation from their rear. Practically this always makes them rout.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    I know in Barbarian Invasion with the Hunnic wedge formation was a fantastic way to break through ANY enemy line.

    When having a full slot of cavalry it is best to use 8 cavalry units in wedge formation wich charge upon the first line infantry directly followed by all other cavalry wich also bash into the enemy line.
    Like said here after the wedge cavalry has charged into the enemy infantry you got to order them to go through (behind) the unit so they just run through.

    Usually the first line infantry is now routing and with the massive follow of all other infantry in no time the rest of the army starts a rout.

    I didn't try this out in Medieval 2 but I gues this will work properly (when using HEAVY cavalry such as cataphracts).

    Tomorrow I'm gonna give this a try ..

    But however I think there are enough tactics around so you don't need to use wedge formation. I wouldn't advice it when you have 'only' few units of cavalry (5 or less).

    BTW Now that I'm thinking of it I'm wondering what it would do when a heavy cavalry unit charges a pike/halbert militia in wedge formation from behind? Someone who knows?
    I know when you do it in normal formation the militia turns around and kills a lot cavalry soldiers, but I don't know what they do when their unit gets split up by the wedge ..
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  20. #20
    Incomitatus's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Wedge Formation

    I'm rolling my eyes. I remember this argument from RTW. "Wedge is broken!" No it isn't. It works like it is supposed to. I wrote a wee guide on the matter back in the old days for RTW, but I'll summarize again: Wedge is for getting your cavalry on *this* side of the enemy line to *that* side of the enemy line by 1. causing a major morale penalty to the enemy and 2. not having to spend ages flanking wide around. It is NOT for inflicting massive causalities on the enemy army, though that can happen if they are close to breaking anyway.

    Look, even the MANUAL says so: "Wedge Formation - Forms cavalry into a narrow wedge that is ideally suited to moving through enemy lines, rather than stopping to engage."

    It can be devastating if you have several units of heavy cavalry and the enemy has no pikes and insufficient reserves behind their front line. Begin with a frontal cavalry charge, followed up by your infantry line... move the cavalry, in wedge, through the enemy front line at a run and then hit the disorganised enemy with the infantry. Reform the cavalry behind the enemy line and deal with any reserve they have and/or their cavalry, then charge into the backs of the engaged front line (assuming they haven't routed yet, which they probably have). It's much quicker and much more devastating to enemy morale than flanking, but conditions have to be just right.

    A front line of pikes, or a large spear reserve, or more/better enemy heavy cavalry will spell disaster, so it's not something I often use in MTW, I'm finding. Back in RTR for RTW, it was the best way to use cataphracts and those heavy Iberian cavalry, which got too tired and took too long to flank. I haven't played MTW much, having only gotten it a few weeks ago, but I suspect that in the early game, before pikes start being common, this'll be the preferred way to use knights. I've been playing mostly as the Scots while learning the game, though, getting back to my infantry commander roots, so I've only tinkered a bit in custom battles, but when I've used wedge it's worked fine as described.

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