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    Default An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    "...while capitalism may be a convenient scapegoat, it did not cause any of these problems. Indeed, whatever one wishes to call the unruly mixture of freedom and government controls that made up our economic and political system during the last three decades, one cannot call it capitalism."

    Taken from:

    Stop Blaming Capitalism for Government Failures by Yaron Brook and Don Watkins

    It's a really interesting analysis of the real roots to the Financial Crisis.

    Yaron Brook goes even further an a interview he did for Newsweek.


    Newsweek:How did the Federal Reserve create today's mess?

    Yaron Brook:The current crisis was caused by the housing bubble, and the primary cause of the housing bubble was the Federal Reserve keeping interest rates at 1 percent in 2003. They were asking people to borrow money, basically begging them. The financial problem we face today was a problem of overleverage, of too much debt—but that's exactly what Federal Reserve policy encouraged.

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/173514
    Last edited by Vladimir Lenin; December 11, 2008 at 09:57 PM.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    i dont want to roll any heads here but given how much everyone has suffered from this crisis the world over (i'd say it's the equivalent of a financial Hiroshima) the folks responsible, should at least be looking at gaol time. that's jail time for you americanos

  3. #3

    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    i dont want to roll any heads
    Then don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    i given how much everyone has suffered from this crisis the world over (i'd say it's the equivalent of a financial Hiroshima)
    Really? Any data or warrants for that claim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    the folks responsible
    The government?
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  4. #4

    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkarin View Post
    well so far 1% of americans have been layed off. and if you say 'oh thats not so many' then tell that to the 3million families with children and wifes
    I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying that it is most certainly not the Financial Hiroshima. This isn't even comparable to the Great Depression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkarin View Post

    btw link isint working
    Edit: NVM link fixed.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Arian the Heretic View Post
    I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying that it is most certainly not the Financial Hiroshima. This isn't even comparable to the Great Depression.



    Which link?
    top one.
    You look great today.

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    i dont want to roll any heads here but given how much everyone has suffered from this crisis the world over (i'd say it's the equivalent of a financial Hiroshima) the folks responsible, should at least be looking at gaol time. that's jail time for you americanos
    heh funny thing is. my economist professor (whom is a capitalist) said to us today 'you know whats funny, how the CEOs who make millions say it was all them till something goes wrong'
    You look great today.

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    a lot of ppl have been lwaid of, i can think of at least 2 countries that've gone into recession, one of them being singapore and another country has to sell its women to the russians now (iceland)

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    a lot of ppl have been lwaid of, i can think of at least 2 countries that've gone into recession,
    And this is somehow the great Financial Hiroshima? Not to mention it was caused by Gov. Intervention in the first place.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    thanks for fixing link
    You look great today.

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Arian the Heretic View Post
    And this is somehow the great Financial Hiroshima? Not to mention it was caused by Gov. Intervention in the first place.
    Everyone has been affected by it, yes it is pretty bad.
    mind extrapolating how gov. intervention caused it?

  11. #11

    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Everyone has been affected by it, yes it is pretty bad.
    mind extrapolating how gov. intervention caused it?
    Alright, I'll try to explain:

    Currently the financial markets are destabilized. Why are they destabilized? The Housing Bubble burst. What created the housing bubble? Risky Lending. What caused the Risky Lending

    In part the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 but most of the blame falls upon the HUD (Department of Housing and Urban Development). In 1996 Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were required to use 42% of their mortgage financing for borrowers with income below the median in their area. Source
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    I doubt that a "truly capitalist" society from lets say the 1950s until now, would even still exist today. This intire ideolegy looks for replacing moral and traditional principals with just greed. That whas the real problem of this intire "money-chipper", not just the government, who can be blamed to, as they did to little to restrict such neanderthaler behaviour. I only hope we can handle this thing and learn from it. However the elected rule needs to lead the way, not the sharks on Wallstreet.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    I doubt that a "truly capitalist" society from lets say the 1950s until now, would even still exist today.
    Hong Kong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    This intire ideolegy looks for replacing moral and traditional principals with just greed.
    What "traditional" values are these? Why should private business ventures be obliged to anything other than the owner's interests (greed).

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    That whas the real problem of this intire "money-chipper", not just the government, who can be blamed to, as they did to little to restrict such neanderthaler behaviour. I only hope we can handle this thing and learn from it. However the elected rule needs to lead the way, not the sharks on Wallstreet.
    If you bothered to read into what is happening you would notice how it is that bad government intervention helped pave the way for the exploitation and economic failures we have had occurring. I fail to see how more bureaucracy is somehow the remedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by PacSubCom View Post
    The good old principle of the socialization of risk and the privatization of profit, which is the natural outcome of objectivist (which is nothing of the sort) policies.
    How have you concluded that objectivism supports corporate welfare?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arian the Heretic View Post
    1. Here is all a government should do: no more, no less.
    a. Protect Citizens from Criminals and other Countries.
    b. Enforce Contracts.

    I fail to see how this is so bad.
    Many are weaned to the nanny government it seems.
    Last edited by BNS; December 15, 2008 at 09:11 PM.



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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    I am always amused when Ayn Rand is dusted off. Much to be said that is good and correct. The basis goes off the tracks though when bankers are concerned. There is a belief that fiat money is bad. There is a sense that central banking is bad. This seems to bias all arguments.

    The current financial crisis is such an event. The government is guilty of micro managing as if it owned the enterprises. This is the failing. It is not rules setting or refereeing the participants. It is not too much regulation or too little regulation. It is the type of regulation.

    For example -- federal tax rules favor private and individual home ownership over other means of home ownership. This bias increases demand for housing in many ways -- larger homes, more bathrooms, larger properties, etc. This is investment in resources that could be used throughout the economy for other more productive purposes as defined by the market -- except for the little detail of government encouragement for certain results.

    This is different from rules that define capacity to agree to contracts or the limits of lenders to recover assets from people and companies unable or unwilling to complete contractual obligations (bankruptcy). The entire economy has existed on gaming the rules and eventually this means a collapse when the fundamentals of investment are simply stretched too thin.
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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Alright, I'll try to explain:

    Currently the financial markets are destabilized. Why are they destabilized? The Housing Bubble burst. What created the housing bubble? Risky Lending. What caused the Risky Lending

    In part the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 but most of the blame falls upon the HUD (Department of Housing and Urban Development). In 1996 Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were required to use 42% of their mortgage financing for borrowers with income below the median in their area.

    That convienently leaves out any of the re-packaging, and hedging tools creating in the free markets that are also at the center of the current mess. And it doesn' t mention that the non GSE mortgage markets were the leaders in sup-prime loaning, not the followers.

    Any explanation of the current crisis that doen't take into account both the failures of the government and the private sector is incomplete.

  16. #16

    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Arian the Heretic View Post
    but that's exactly what Federal Reserve policy encouraged.

    And the bankers jumped on it eagerly, knowing full well that eventually, when it all comes home again, they would be bailed out by the public. Because that is what pretty much always happens in a system that is set up for megacorporate welfare. Market discipline is not for the rich and powerful. The good old principle of the socialization of risk and the privatization of profit, which is the natural outcome of objectivist (which is nothing of the sort) policies.

    The whole differentiation between the "government" and "business" is a sham too. Government is the political arm of business. Government is part of the business party, be it named Bush or Obama.

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    I found this article not helping the argument of capitalists at all. it just made it seem more of their fault. anyone else get this view from reading it?
    You look great today.

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    alan greesnpand is respoinsible
    i'm surprised he hasnt been lynched by a mob with pitchforks and torches yet,
    or at the very least, tarred and feathered

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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    alan greesnpand is respoinsible
    i'm surprised he hasnt been lynched by a mob with pitchforks and torches yet,
    or at the very least, tarred and feathered
    Peerhaps debate with words and ideas and not resorting to physical violence might be a better avenue of attack?? Maybe?

    With that in mind -- what is the specific problem that AG is responsible for creating and how did he personally create the problem?
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    Default Re: An Objectivist/Capitalist Analysis of the Finanical Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Peerhaps debate with words and ideas and not resorting to physical violence might be a better avenue of attack?? Maybe?

    With that in mind -- what is the specific problem that AG is responsible for creating and how did he personally create the problem?
    according to wiki:
    On October 15, 2008, Anthony Faiola, Ellen Nakashima, and Jill Drew wrote a lengthy article in the Washington Post titled, "What Went Wrong".[175] In their investigation, the authors claim that former Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan, Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, and SEC Chairman Arthur Levitt vehemently opposed any regulation of financial instruments known as derivatives. They further claim that Greenspan actively sought to undermine the office of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, specifically under the leadership of Brooksley E. Born, when the Commission sought to initiate regulation of derivatives. Ultimately, it was the collapse of a specific kind of derivative, the mortgage-backed security, that triggered the economic crises of 2008.
    On October 17, 2008, attorney Timothy D. Naegele wrote an article in the American Banker entitled, "Greenspan's Fingerprints All Over Enduring Mess," which argues that Alan Greenspan's actions and inactions triggered the economic crises of 2008. The article discusses 'the economic tsunami that has been rolling worldwide with devastating effects'; and the author asserts that 'Greenspan is the architect of the enormous economic "bubble" that burst globally'. The author cites Giulio Tremonti, Italy's Minister of Economy and Finance, who said: "Greenspan was considered a master. Now we must ask ourselves whether he is not, after [Osama] bin Laden, the man who hurt America the most."[176]
    While Greenspan's role as Chairman of the Federal Reserve has been widely discussed (the main point of controversy remains the lowering of Federal funds rate at only 1% for more than a year which, according to the Austrian School of economics, allowed huge amounts of "easy" credit-based money to be injected into the financial system and thus create an unsustainable economic boom[177][178]), there is also the argument that Greenspan actions in the years 2002-2004 were actually motivated by the need to take the U.S. economy out of the early 2000s recession caused by the bursting of dot-com bubble - although by doing so he did not help avert the crisis, but only postpone it.[179][180]
    Many libertarians, including Congressman and former 2008 Presidential candidate Ron Paul[181] and Peter Schiff in his book Crash Proof, predicted the crisis prior to its occurrence. They are critical of theories that the free market caused the crisis[182] and instead argue that the Federal Reserve's printing of money out of thin air and the Community Reinvestment Act are the primary causes of the crisis.[183] However Alan Greenspan himself has conceded he was partially wrong to oppose regulation of the markets, and expressed "shocked disbelief" at the failure of the self interest of the markets, which according to neo-liberal economic theory should have protected shareholder equity.[184]
    It has also been argued that the root cause of the crisis is overproduction of goods caused by globalization.[185] Professor Herman Daly suggests that it is not actually an economic crisis, but a crisis of overgrowth beyond sustainable ecological limits.[186]
    source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_ec...conomic_crisis

    at the very least, all of greenspan's assets and personal wealth should be proscribed into solving this mess, and those of Rubin and Levitt as well.
    then they should be tarred and feathered and railroaded out of town

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