Why be a patriot?

[The Dude]

It seems to me that being a patriot equals displaying a great lack of objectivism towards the rest of the world. The insistence that, despite all information to the contrary, your nation is the single best.

I am Dutch. That means I live on a continent that works heavily towards unification, but the opponents of this unification are these so-called "patriots" that would stop all progress dead in their tracks to preserve a country for... what reasons exactly?

Americans also often talk about patriotism. It's even worse there. There, being a patriot instantly equals being pro-american, and thus not having any patriotic feelings equals being anti-american.

When you really get to the core of why you live in the country you do, there are only two possible reasons: you migrated, or you were born there. It almost seems more logical to me that a migrant would harbor patriotic feelings for better and stronger reasons than a native would. Because at least the migrant made a concious decision to live in a nation of his choosing, whereas the native was simply born where he was which is not a matter of choice at all.

When I go abroad, and I've been all over western Europe now with the exception of the UK and the Iberian peninsula, there are some things that I think we definitely have better in the Netherlands. But there are also many things that I think other countries do better. So why side with your own country so unconditionally?

People in Holland often say that we should work against the developments in the EU because we should preserve dutch culture, and that we should be pro-holland because we have a proud history. Well, doesn't everyone? I mean, if I look up the histories of England or Poland, there are plenty things to be proud of there aswell. I figure any nation has a history worth telling and remembering, so why favour the history of the nation you were randomly born into?

"Yes but this country gave you everything you have" is often used as an argument aswell. Maybe so, but I would've had a lot of things just the same if I had been born in Norway.

It's at this point that the patriotic argument usually dissolves into feelings more than logic. "It's just right to be proud of the achievements of your country." Uhm, ok? I wasn't present for 99% of those as I wasn't born yet. And the other 1% of achievements certainly weren't of my doing. So why should -I- harbor pride for the work of other people? I could just aswell be proud of Germany and the way they restored their reputation in the international community so quickly after thoroughly trashing it during the first half of the 20th century.

There's accomplishments to be admired in any nation. So why specifically admire the dutch ones? To be honest, if we're talking pride I'd rather be proud of humanity as a whole for the good things we've all done and accomplished, rather than limit my pride to one specific geographical region where my birth was a completely random occurence.

[Yorkshireman]

Your perfectly entitled to hold those opinions, that is your right, just as others are entitled to hold theirs.

You describe opponents of EU integration as "so called patriots" as if their view holds no validity or is automatically wrong. This is'nt the case.

I live in a country where the majority are opposed to full EU integration, (the UK of course!), I constantly hear that we are whiners, ultra nationalists, backwards, holding back Europe etc You can't stop people thinking what they want or having an opinion different to yours.

As for belonging to a certain country, I and many, would find your views strange but they are your views. I was born in England my family has been here for ever, its our land. Its my culture, language, way of life, what ever you want to call it. I've travelled extensively from the arctic, to the desrt to the jungle through many different peoples and cultures. But at the end of it all I'm still an Englishman and I can't or would'nt want to change it. It might be an accident of birth, but that is irrelevent. I could have been born somewhere else but I was'nt. If I was born a German or a Swede I'd no doubt feel the same.

And yes I am proud of my nations achievments, my father was there for some, as was my grandfather and his before him and I've made my own little contribution aswell. Thats what makes a nation. You can't pretend that the past has had no bearing on what you are today.

We don't disregard everything from before the day we were born.

[The Dude]

As for belonging to a certain country, I and many, would find your views strange but they are your views. I was born in England my family has been here for ever, its our land. Its my culture, language, way of life, what ever you want to call it.

Well, that is perhaps where we differ. We've done some geneological research about my family and it turns out I've got roots all over the place. My blood is part French, Italian, Frisian and Viking. I guess that's typical for someone who's Dutch though, as this place has always been a melting pot of bloodlines.

But that only further reinforces my views. What makes one "Dutch"? If we are everything and everyone, why this artificial drawing of cultural borders?

I've travelled extensively from the arctic, to the desrt to the jungle through many different peoples and cultures. But at the end of it all I'm still an Englishman and I can't or would'nt want to change it. It might be an accident of birth, but that is irrelevent. I could have been born somewhere else but I was'nt. If I was born a German or a Swede I'd no doubt feel the same.

I've travelled all over Western Europe as I said aswell and my experience with Dutch people abroad has been downright horrible. I find Scandinavians friendly and helpful. I find Italians cheerful and entertaining. I find Germans to be some of the most kind people I've ever met. I find the French to be stuck up bastards. I find Moroccans obnoxious. The latter two were included to show that I don't love everyone else better than I love my own xD

But what do I find the Dutch? Well... to be honest, I find them uncivilised, rude and smallminded. I don't enjoy the company of my fellow dutchmen at all. I think there are many people and many cultures out there who are more pleasant to be around than my own.

And yes I am proud of my nations achievments, my father was there for some, as was my grandfather and his before him and I've made my own little contribution aswell. Thats what makes a nation. You can't pretend that the past has had no bearing on what you are today.

We don't disregard everything from before the day we were born.

Some part of me is proud. I met the Dutch queen in real life. That was a special moment for me, especially as I had just studied the entire Dutch royal bloodline starting with William of Orange. I greatly admire the efforts that Holland has gone through to rid themselves of Spanish occupation, but at the same time it seemed that after the 18th century all that courage and valor faded and was replaced by cowardice and complacency.

I am not in the least bit proud of Holland in World War II. We have one of the highest percentages of exterminated jews in all of Europe, only because we didn't think twice about helping the Germans accomplish their goals. We just did as ordered like obedient sheep.

So you are right, I can't pretend that the past has no bearing on what we did today. Maybe I am more dissatisfied with the course my country took and the people we became, than anything else.

[Yorkshireman]

Where you are from don't mean .

Thats only your opinion, not everyones.

[MasterOfNone]

Patriotism is not the belittling of other countries but a very natural and imho necessary feeling of unity and commonality that preserves the indepedence of a nation. Those who say they love all countries equally is, to me, a little bit like a man saying he loves all families the same as his own. We have a duty to our family and to our extended family above that of others (who are of course loved by their constituent members) - it is the nature of things. Ultimately, of course, patriotism is the love and devotion we have toward "the fathers" - both living and dead who make up what our country is.

The Scot Patriot, Fletcher of Saltoun (1653-1716) summed this up like this:

"Show me a patriot and I will show you a true lover of humanity. Show me a man who says he loves all equally and I will show you a man who lacks discernment and loves none but himself."

Herbert Hoover said (nationalism meant patriotism back then!):

"We must realise the vitality of the great spiritual force which we call nationalism. The fuzzy-minded intellectuals have sought to brand nationalism as a sin against mankind. They seem to think that infamy is attached to the word 'nationalist'. But that force cannot be obscured by denunciation of it as greed or selfishness – as it sometimes is. The spirit of nationalism springs from the deepest of human emotions. It rises from the yearning of men to be free of foreign domination, to govern themselves. It springs from a thousand rills of race, of history, of sacrifice and pride in national achievement." (As quoted by Eugene W. Castle in Billions, Blunders and Baloney, p. 259)

The collectivist mindset brands patriotism as evil because it knows that patriotism must be overcome in order to establish a centralised regional or global government, a philosophy sometimes called supranationalism.

There are a number of dangers associated with such a concept:

1. Centralising power from the hands of many into the hands of a few goes against the most basic tenets of wisdom and all the lessons of history; for it only makes it easier for evil men to gain control of more people; and such centralism itself provides only a stronger attraction for ambitious and greedy individuals.

2. Political agreements do not change the nature of people (and thus nations). Nations become more united (and less given to war) only through free, mutual and natural relationships. In other words, political agreements play no part except as a danger to stirring up contention by employing coercion rather than influence.

3. Our first love and responsibility should be toward our own nation, as with our family above other families. To not love our own country first will not engender a genuine love for all other countries. To think otherwise is to be under the delusion of a false Utopian hope based on neither principle or an understanding of human nature.

4. Centralising power will diminish individual liberty; the powers of a just and free government should reside with the people mainly, with a few powers delegated to local governments, and even fewer to the central government
The Prime Minister/President (or anyone else) is not authorised under law to act within a foreign political organisation or to yield sovereignty (this is treason). He is the leader of his country, elected to that responsibility and paid by the taxpayers of his country.

Here's what a former US cabinet member said:

"The world is smaller, you say? True, it is, but if one finds himself locked in a house with maniacs, thieves and murderers – even a small house – he does not increase his chances of survival by entering into alliances with his potential attackers and becoming dependent upon them for protection to the point where he is unable to defend himself. Perhaps the analogy between nations and maniacs is a little strong for some to accept. But if we put aside our squeamishness over strong language, and look hard at the real world in which we live, the analogy is quite sound in all but the rarest exceptions." (Ezra Taft Benson, United States Foreign Policy address given at the Farm Bureau Banquet in Preston, Idaho, June 21st 1968)

[Xan]

It seems to me that being a patriot equals displaying a great lack of objectivism towards the rest of the world. The insistence that, despite all information to the contrary, your nation is the single best.

I disagree i am a patriot. But i do not believe that my contry is better then all oters in fact i do believe that my contry can be improved in a number of ways and as a patriot it is my duty to attempt to improve it.

[The Dude]

I disagree i am a patriot. But i do not believe that my contry is better then all oters in fact i do believe that my contry can be improved in a number of ways and as a patriot it is my duty to attempt to improve it.

Hmm, that is a very good answer o_o.

[AqD]

I disagree i am a patriot. But i do not believe that my contry is better then all oters in fact i do believe that my contry can be improved in a number of ways and as a patriot it is my duty to attempt to improve it.

Why is it a duty, rather than your own personal pursuit? If it should be a duty, I guess you also believe other people in your nation must have the same duty? Because it's what patriotism really means.

[Yorkshireman]

I disagree i am a patriot. But i do not believe that my contry is better then all oters in fact i do believe that my contry can be improved in a number of ways and as a patriot it is my duty to attempt to improve it.

I agree with that entirely, I am more critical of my own country than anywhere else.

[Platon]

I live in a country where the majority are opposed to full EU integration, (the UK of course!)..

I think you can leave any time you want...

There are many things that are ed up in the EU - but the open borders and peoples integration is not one of them

But what do I find the Dutch? Well... to be honest, I find them uncivilised, rude and smallminded. I don't enjoy the company of my fellow dutchmen at all. I think there are many people and many cultures out there who are more pleasant to be around than my own...

I met one dutch dude (not u I hope..) on a greek island - one of the biggest a-holes ever.
And then there is a dutch couple that moved close to where I live in Stockholm - lovely people!!

Where you are from don't mean . Of cource it's easier to make good friends when you speak the same language. But if you open your mind you can meet people from anywhere and connect perfectly..

[the_mango55]

It seems to me that being a patriot equals displaying a great lack of objectivism towards the rest of the world. The insistence that, despite all information to the contrary, your nation is the single best.

I am Dutch. That means I live on a continent that works heavily towards unification, but the opponents of this unification are these so-called "patriots" that would stop all progress dead in their tracks to preserve a country for... what reasons exactly?

You don't have to believe your nation is the best at all things to be patriotic, but I guess the logic of a patriot is if you don't believe your nation is great, then why are you here? You should go to the country that is great.

Americans also often talk about patriotism. It's even worse there. There, being a patriot instantly equals being pro-american, and thus not having any patriotic feelings equals being anti-american.

I guess it depends on how you define "patriotic feelings". There is an extremely vocal minority who goes around labelling anyone who is critical of the country "anti-american" but honestly I think I have only heard that term in person, used to describe another American, once (unless it was a joke).

People in Holland often say that we should work against the developments in the EU because we should preserve dutch culture, and that we should be pro-holland because we have a proud history. Well, doesn't everyone? I mean, if I look up the histories of England or Poland, there are plenty things to be proud of there aswell. I figure any nation has a history worth telling and remembering, so why favour the history of the nation you were randomly born into?

"Yes but this country gave you everything you have" is often used as an argument aswell. Maybe so, but I would've had a lot of things just the same if I had been born in Norway.

You probably would have gotten as much love and affection if you had been born to your neighbors also, should you love them as much as you love your parents?

[Strattios]

For me, Patriotism is preserving the rights our founding fathers gave us here in America. Anything that threatens to eliminate those rights is a threat. It's that simple really, I don't mind other ideas and such, I just don't want to lose what my ancestors gave me. That includes both those who fought over the centuries to gain us our freedom and rights, as well as my ancestors who gave up everything to come to this new nation. So long as our rights and identity as a nation remain intact and free from threat, I am content.

[Treize]

For me, Patriotism is preserving the rights our founding fathers gave us here in America. Anything that threatens to eliminate those rights is a threat. It's that simple really, I don't mind other ideas and such, I just don't want to lose what my ancestors gave me. That includes both those who fought over the centuries to gain us our freedom and rights, as well as my ancestors who gave up everything to come to this new nation. So long as our rights and identity as a nation remain intact and free from threat, I am content.

Yes.

But most dutch people care only about themselfs and don't really care about there country, unless its about football ofcourse.

BUT a mayority voted AGAINST the lisbon treaty but those burocrats just adapted on line and said, "ok now everyone agrees" without a new referendum, its all fake democracy..

[Sven788]

Yes.

But most dutch people care only about themselfs and don't really care about there country, unless its about football ofcourse.

BUT a mayority voted AGAINST the lisbon treaty but those burocrats just adapted on line and said, "ok now everyone agrees" without a new referendum, its all fake democracy..

100% Agreed this kind of things makes me against the EU.

I am a patriot but not a nationalist.

[Каие]

"Being born in a stable does not make a man a horse" Firstly that sums me up. Which is why I can never understand bind patriotism. I am loyal to principles. Principles I hold dear and love, and which so happen to be the centre column of my country. Liberty, equality and Tolerance. There is too another saying "If I ever have to choose between betraying my country and my friend, I hope to god I have the guts to betray my country". Nations are manufactured, and moulded by every next guy. But principles, love, friendship and morality, remain unchanged and solid.

[Thorn777]

"Being born in a stable does not make a man a horse" Firstly that sums me up. Which is why I can never understand bind patriotism. I am loyal to principles. Principles I hold dear and love, and which so happen to be the centre column of my country. Liberty, equality and Tolerance. There is too another saying "If I ever have to choose between betraying my country and my friend, I hope to god I have the guts to betray my country". Nations are manufactured, and moulded by every next guy. But principles, love, friendship and morality, remain unchanged and solid.

Very well put, and my thoughts exactly.

[Last Roman]

The insistence that, despite all information to the contrary, your nation is the single best.

most today would call that nationalism. patriotism does not really have a single definition. For me patriotism having support for one's country when it is in the right and having the balls to speak up when it's wrong.

Nations are manufactured, and moulded by every next guy.

nations are just extended family (to a huge degree), people you share common values, traits, blood with. it is governments that are manufactured.

[IEROS LOXOS]

nations are just extended family (to a huge degree), people you share common values, traits, blood with. it is governments that are manufactured.[/quote]


+rep

[Da Skinna]

Herbert Hoover was a .

I had to say it.


There's nothing wrong with loving the land you live and toil on, but there is nil difference between committing atrocities under the name of patriotism, and under the name of God.

Patriotism is similar in that it leads to a kind of Divine Validation, you can do what you like, if you do it for the right name. It's not as if patriotism cannot be molded by those above us.

And don't get me started on nationalism.

I love my country and its people, but if it means it comes at the expense of all other people, there's something wrong here.

Here's Bill Hicks:

[Last Roman]

unfortunately, just like every other 'ism' out there, patriotism is (or can be) a good idea that is often turned bad by stupid people.