Question To Europeans

[Justice and Mercy]

Do you think the EU is going to strip your country of it's self-determination?

I can say that if I were a Brit I would resist further international integration in Europe.

Why?

The integration would likely lead to a sort of democratic system, meaning the majority of Europe, no longer the majority of Britain, would control Britain's policies.

Say a few decades down the road Britain gets sick of this crap, and tries seceding.

The EU claims Britain has no such right, and the European Civil War erupts.

Like I said, if I were European I would resist further integration.

[Norge]

Why do you specifically mention Brits?

[Justice and Mercy]

Why do you specifically mention Brits?

Because they seem like they're debating this among themselves, just seemed like a good example to me.

Why aren't you answering my question?

[Norge]

Why aren't you answering my question?

My country is not a member. But yes, Eu partially strips a country's self-determination and hence I'm no supporter.

Your scenario is a little far-fetched though.

[Manco]

Bravo with the completely unfounded American Civil War analogy.
What do I care about my country's self-determination, my countrymen are a bunch of people I don't know and the EU-citizens are a bunch of people I don't know; I care about my self-determination regardless of in what political entity I reside.

[Norge]

Bravo with the completely unfounded American Civil War analogy.
What do I care about my country's self-determination, my countrymen are a bunch of people I don't know and the EU-citizens are a bunch of people I don't know; I care about my self-determination regardless of in what political entity I reside.

And thankfully most people don't feel like you do.

[Justice and Mercy]

Bravo with the completely unfounded American Civil War analogy.

What makes you think that? Because I said "secede" and "European Civil War"?

It's not far-fetched.

The richer member states will eventually be forced to send money to the poorer member states for the sake of "social justice" and "equality", and they won't like that.

Say, for instance, Norway joins.

They're nice and rich, perfect targets for a further-integrated EU looking for a nice cash-cow.

To you Norwegians, when the immature idealists get a majority, you're in trouble.

As the EU centralizes and integrates the democratic principle of "20 for 80" will anchor itself, and the poorer people will live off the backs of the richer people. As those nations try and secede the poorer majority will be pissed because they're having their living stripped away from them.

[Thorn777]

@Justice and Mercy

What makes you think that? Because I said "secede" and "European Civil War"?

LOL, I guess so.

It's not far-fetched.

Why because of what you have written below? :hmmm:

The richer member states will eventually be forced to send money to the poorer member states for the sake of "social justice" and "equality", and they won't like that.

Newsflash. We have allready send trillions of euros,marks,francs,pounds,guldens,krones etc to our fellow memberstates. Nothing near a civil-war yet.

Say, for instance, Norway joins.
They're nice and rich, perfect targets for a further-integrated EU looking for a nice cash-cow.

Yeah, thats whats this union is all about: taking in rich countrys so we can "milk" them. Where have you been? We took care of eastern-Europe in a very generous way, and we cant force anyone to join us. If Norway wants to play its safecard and wait untill their oil is no more use, its up them to act like a pussy. We cant force them. Would be nice though, because they profit allot from this union.

To you Norwegians, when the immature idealists get a majority, you're in trouble.

Says the social-Darwinist calling himself "justice and mercy".

As the EU centralizes and integrates the democratic principle of "20 for 80" will anchor itself, and the poorer people will live off the backs of the richer people. As those nations try and secede the poorer majority will be pissed because they're having their living stripped away from them.

Save your ideologic fantasys for the US of A. And stop spreading simplistic nonsense. Rich people get richer via this EU, and the poor get poorer via globalisation. This EU is the best way to keep jobs in Europe and not in China. We definatly need reforms, also on the democratic side, but the thing is not as synister as you believe.

[Justice and Mercy]

Newsflash. We have allready send trillions of euros,marks,francs,pounds,guldens,krones etc to our fellow memberstates. Nothing near a civil-war yet.

Wait 'til it's EU law for you to do so.

Yeah, thats whats this union is all about: taking in rich countrys so we can "milk" them.

That's what it will be about.

Where have you been?

Umm, right here.

We took care of eastern-Europe in a very generous way,

You took care of Eastern Europe by robbing your own people's money.

Again, wait until the Federal Government of the EU has the legal power to tax the richer nations and send the money to the more populous poor.

Says the social-Darwinist calling himself "justice and mercy".

The term "social-Darwinist" has always amused me.

Save your ideologic fantasys for the US of A.

What fantasies?

I'm looking at a likely situation.

Rich people get richer via this EU, and the poor get poorer via globalisation.

Rich people will be taxed in the EU, and, just like as is going to happen in America, neighbor will steal from neighbor until there is nothing left.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Brits are going to live in squalor while Americans aren't, we all will.

What I'm saying is the richer taxpaying Brits will have alot more poor people to toil for than the richer taxpaying Americans, unless we do someting extremely stupid like integrate with Mexico.

This EU is the best way to keep jobs in Europe and not in China.

Actually the best way to do that is to stop chasing away your own manufacturing companies, like we Americans are doing.

We definatly need reforms, also on the democratic side, but the thing is not as synister as you believe.

It's always sinister. It's sinister in the US, it's sinister in Britain, but for the Brits the effects of this sinister-ness (yep, sinister-ness) will become worse with further integration.

[Thorn777]

@Justice and Mercy

Wait 'til it's EU law for you to do so.

Sending money to poorer memberstates whas never a question of charity for the people of the richer European nations. If some sort of "EU-nation" would call it "law", it would make no damn difference, as we have been "forced" all this time. We dont give a flying fuzz about such semantics.

That's what it will be about.

Who is left: Norway, Switzerland and ......... no one really.

Umm, right here.

Yeah, I have seen some US coverage about the EU. Its overall mindboggling. Liked that one that tells about the EU when it becomes the "Jezus-empire" that will destroy all others including the US.

You took care of Eastern Europe by robbing your own people's money.

Cynical way of looking at it, and a way many over here do to. But mostly by people who dont have a clue in general.

Again, wait until the Federal Government of the EU has the legal power to tax the richer nations and send the money to the more populous poor.

I doubt the future EU will have more power to do so as it allready has. I even doubt that it will be necessairy or that the "poorer" ask for more.

The term "social-Darwinist" has always amused me.

Well, in the capitalism thread you revealed yourself as one. You seem to not have learned anything in the meantime.

What fantasies?

The ones in your head.

What I'm saying is the richer taxpaying Brits will have alot more poor people to toil for than the richer taxpaying Americans, unless we do someting extremely stupid like integrate with Mexico.

The richer taxpayers allready profit the most from the EU.

Actually the best way to do that is to stop chasing away your own manufacturing companies, like we Americans are doing.

Like what youll did the last decades? Low taxes etc. Wont work.

[Manco]

I'm just saying as long as my personal freedom and privacy is respected, I have no qualms with a EU or other supranational government.

National self-determination isn't some Holy Grail, my personal freedoms are. And until now the EU hasn't transgressed on those more than a random national government.

What is it with everyone and national self-determination anyway? It all seems to go back to a dislike of representative democracy and tyranny of the majority coupled with a pursuit of direct democracy, yet they still cling to national governments, who themselves are representative democracies and have majority rule.

[Delvecchio1975]

nationalism is blinding, Maraud. it makes people accept a whole lot of cr*p they shouldn't.

[VALIS]

Of course the EU is going to strip the independent nation states of their self-determination. Its already implemented several acts already. The common agriculture and fisheries act where the EU tells countries basically what it can and cannot do. The creation of a central EU bank. The creation of an EU parliament. Taking away vetoes of countries so the EU can overide those states anyway. The creation of a pan-European juidicial system. And finally, the attempts and ambitions to unify the military and foreign policy of the states.
And YES the ultimate goal of the elitist EU bureaucrats is not a supra-national organization, the ultimate goal IS a federal country.

ALL of these things take away from the self determination and sovereignty of a country in the EU. It will abolish the countries. That is why all patriots of their respective countries should say NO to the undemocratic and bureaucratic EUSSR.

[k995]

Of course the EU is going to strip the independent nation states of their self-determination. Its already implemented several acts already. The common agriculture and fisheries act where the EU tells countries basically what it can and cannot do. The creation of a central EU bank. The creation of an EU parliament. Taking away vetoes of countries so the EU can overide those states anyway. The creation of a pan-European juidicial system. And finally, the attempts and ambitions to unify the military and foreign policy of the states.
And YES the ultimate goal of the elitist EU bureaucrats is not a supra-national organization, the ultimate goal IS a federal country.

ALL of these things take away from the self determination and sovereignty of a country in the EU. It will abolish the countries. That is why all patriots of their respective countries should say NO to the undemocratic and bureaucratic EUSSR.

Wich is quit BS you would have about as much to say over a EU parliament as you have now over a brittisch parliament.

Eu does NOT want to abbolish countrys (no matter how many times irrational EU haters like yourself say that) . And no I am no EU lover myself, it needs quit some reforms before I would let it go any further.

[Xan]

Besides if Europe starts working as a European democracy then it wouldn't be them deciding Dutch law (in my case), but them deciding European law as the Netherlands wouldn't be a factor anymore.

But you can`t remove the fact that in such a situation mostly non dutch will be deciding law for the dutch.

Also personal i have no problem paying almost 50% tax when i know it goes (mostly) to good things for my country and my fellow citizens.

I would however not wanna pay much tax to support some corrupt or lazy person from anoter part of Europe.

[k995]

But you can`t remove the fact that in such a situation mostly non dutch will be deciding law for the dutch.

Also personal i have no problem paying almost 50% tax when i know it goes (mostly) to good things for my country and my fellow citizens.

I would however not wanna pay much tax to support some corrupt or lazy person from anoter part of Europe.

There isnt any difference between the 2 , its just nationalism. Anything you say you can apply also on the EU.

And non dutch already decide most over the dutch, its just too small in tyhe global world to make any difference. In the EU the dutch actually get more power then if they would have been alone.

As for the taxes: the same legislation that makes sure nobody in the netherlands takes advantages of the benefits can be implemented .

[Xan]

There isnt any difference between the 2 , its just nationalism. Anything you say you can apply also on the EU.

And non dutch already decide most over the dutch, its just too small in tyhe global world to make any difference. In the EU the dutch actually get more power then if they would have been alone.

As for the taxes: the same legislation that makes sure nobody in the netherlands takes advantages of the benefits can be implemented .

Yes it is nationalism but that is not necessarily bad. If the nationalism and local etiquette makes it less likely you will take advantage of the system.

You can always have rules but you also need a willingness in the people to follow those rules if you don`T have that the rules are meaningless.

You can`t just say it`S natinalism and then igonre it naionalsim is real and i love my contry and would if alled upon sacrifice a great deal to help it. I would however not do so for a united Europe.
Honestly if i was left in a psosion were i could taked adavantege of a sytem in a European superstate i would be far more likely to do so then i am now.

Since i do feel loyalty to my goverment and love for my contry and i would feel neither for a European superstate.

and by the way

I really don t care that a union of people from everywhere in Europe takes decision for "my" country instead of people of just from my country

only thing that matters in that they must be competent

But due to ther diffrent baground what is smart and competent in their view is more likely to be very diffrent from what is smart or competant in my view.

Also the fact that they are not from my contry makes it less likey they know how there decions will effect my contry. And it is also less likeyl they will care.

And been forgeiner there is also a chance they will use there power to better condsions in there home districts at the epence of my district.
You cold say that this is conterd by evry conry haveing represtatives but not evry contry have an equal amont of representatives. and that makes it very possibel for a big poor contry to screw a small rich contry over.

[The Dude]

But you can`t remove the fact that in such a situation mostly non dutch will be deciding law for the dutch.

Also personal i have no problem paying almost 50% tax when i know it goes (mostly) to good things for my country and my fellow citizens.

I would however not wanna pay much tax to support some corrupt or lazy person from anoter part of Europe.

Well as it happens, non-Texans just chose the Texas' new president aswell. I heard it was a black guy.

I believe that system works fine.

[Xan]

Well as it happens, non-Texans just chose the Texas' new president aswell. I heard it was a black guy.

I believe that system works fine.

Europe is`nt the US.

I feel no patriotism toward Europe i do toward Norway.

I would work hard and sacrifice for my country i would not feel that kinda patriotism toward Europe.

[Manco]

But why is the abolition of that national self-determination per se a bad thing?

I can see it as a principle to keep democracy as direct and local as possible, but then you should also strive to smaller entities than the current states, perhaps in a polis-variant.
Otherwise it has to do with irrational nationalism and patriotism, on which you can't build an objective case.