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  1. #1

    Default macedonia

    this might sound weird but i find macedonia hard to play as. the gauls are extremely easy to beat but after that it get really hard. macedonias early game unit roster is utter . the phalanx is so weak. they are nothing but defense units. i cant use pincers on them or anything anymore. not to mention that they sometimes lose out to cavalry in a frontal assault. the cavalry charge goes trhough my pikes and then when the pikes arent in use they beat my phalanx in hand to hand fighting. the thessalians are the only good units i can find but theyre nothing but skirmishers glorified not the heavy cavalry i need.

    how do you guys play macedon? what units should i recruit? thorakitai? thereuphoroi? hoplites? i think phalanx is a must. they are very good for holding a line if i dont try and fancy tricks with them. should i wage a diplomatic war after quelling the greek revolt until i get the higher tier unts?

  2. #2
    Webba's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: macedonia

    When your pikes aren't in use give the unit the 'stop' command. They'll start using the pikes again.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: macedonia

    Aznflea, the Macs game play is not the easiest, I guess, but after you break the barbarian invasion, it's not that difficult to secure Greece. With Greece in hand, you'll find yourself in a healthy situation and multiple expansion possibilities. Just try to avoid long attrition wars on multiple fronts. I would suggest invasion of Anatolia, rather than moving into barbarian world. Expansion into barbarian territory is less rewording in economical terms, for instance. Invasion of Italy is also a very interesting scenario, but make sure to bring enough decent cavalry and heavy infantry.

  4. #4
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Re: macedonia

    Hypaspists and Hietaroi are some quite capable assault units, remember that you need to implement hammer and anvil tactics to fight effectively.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: macedonia

    Is it me or does it seem people are abandoning the phalanx for auxilary type troops? The phalanx can be used in other ways than just the old hammer and anvil. Draw a reserve phalanx to smash the enemy center or reinforce the rear flanks with phalangites. Historicaly the true power of the Macedonian phalanx was it's deep ranks wich applied heavy preasure to the battle line. It all starts with the accedental discovery of the Theban phalanx at the battle of Delium. The classic hoplite phalanx was always 8 shields deep. But with the Boetian right pressed against a stream, it was forced into deployment of 16 sheilds deep. Needless to say, these deep ranks crushed the Athenian left. That was how the Theban phalanx came to be and would later crush Spartan Hegemony after the Pelopennesian War. Lead by Epaminondas. The trick was to apply as much presure to the enemy center by forming deeper ranks than the enemy. The enemy line maybe a bit broader and could start to wheel around your flanks. But this will do no good once the center is decimated and the men on the flanks isolated. Not to mention your cavalry and light infantry can counter that flanking maneuver if held in reserve instead of wheeling like the "hammer". The Macedonian phalanx was revised version of the Theban phalanx created by Phillip II. Phillip was a hostage in Thebes during the freedom fight of Epaminondas and his happy little romp through Greece. Of course, the major differences were the pikes, even deeper ranks,(32 sheilds deep), professional troops who did nothing but train and fight, and of course a versitile auxilary force of heavy and light cavalry/infantry. But the phalanx was always sent first. Alexander even had a reserve phalanx at Gaugamela. If you notice, the new phalanx formations in the current version of XGM has the guard mode of the phalanx turned off... finally. This should suggest using your pikemen as your main attack.


    To make things short and to put an end to my rambling, find some good indepth material on ancient Greek battle tactics and experiment with them. The same rules pretty much apply in RTW. Just takes a little practice and experimenting.


    But I will say CA did a very piss poor job representing the phalanx. Especially went ordered to charge. I can't imagine the Macedonians waltzing up to the enemy, comming to a complete stop, half ass thrusting their pikes, and then for some reason turn the opposite direction in the middle of the fight.

    ok I'm done.

  6. #6
    Double A's Avatar person man
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    Default Re: macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by dirty_M View Post
    Is it me or does it seem people are abandoning the phalanx for auxilary type troops? The phalanx can be used in other ways than just the old hammer and anvil. Draw a reserve phalanx to smash the enemy center or reinforce the rear flanks with phalangites. Historicaly the true power of the Macedonian phalanx was it's deep ranks wich applied heavy preasure to the battle line. It all starts with the accedental discovery of the Theban phalanx at the battle of Delium. The classic hoplite phalanx was always 8 shields deep. But with the Boetian right pressed against a stream, it was forced into deployment of 16 sheilds deep. Needless to say, these deep ranks crushed the Athenian left. That was how the Theban phalanx came to be and would later crush Spartan Hegemony after the Pelopennesian War. Lead by Epaminondas. The trick was to apply as much presure to the enemy center by forming deeper ranks than the enemy. The enemy line maybe a bit broader and could start to wheel around your flanks. But this will do no good once the center is decimated and the men on the flanks isolated. Not to mention your cavalry and light infantry can counter that flanking maneuver if held in reserve instead of wheeling like the "hammer". The Macedonian phalanx was revised version of the Theban phalanx created by Phillip II. Phillip was a hostage in Thebes during the freedom fight of Epaminondas and his happy little romp through Greece. Of course, the major differences were the pikes, even deeper ranks,(32 sheilds deep), professional troops who did nothing but train and fight, and of course a versitile auxilary force of heavy and light cavalry/infantry. But the phalanx was always sent first. Alexander even had a reserve phalanx at Gaugamela. If you notice, the new phalanx formations in the current version of XGM has the guard mode of the phalanx turned off... finally. This should suggest using your pikemen as your main attack.


    To make things short and to put an end to my rambling, find some good indepth material on ancient Greek battle tactics and experiment with them. The same rules pretty much apply in RTW. Just takes a little practice and experimenting.


    But I will say CA did a very piss poor job representing the phalanx. Especially went ordered to charge. I can't imagine the Macedonians waltzing up to the enemy, comming to a complete stop, half ass thrusting their pikes, and then for some reason turn the opposite direction in the middle of the fight.

    ok I'm done.
    Either you are a military historian, or a Wikipedia fanatic.

    Anyway, if you find trouble with the phalanx alone, just use it to hold the enemy in place, and flank them with your calvary and aux. troops.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Double A View Post
    Either you are a military historian, or a Wikipedia fanatic.

    Anyway, if you find trouble with the phalanx alone, just use it to hold the enemy in place, and flank them with your calvary and aux. troops.


    No, I'm a phalanx fanatic. I suffer from a severe case of "Phalangitis".

    BTW, beware of Wikipedia. Not all of it is correct.

  8. #8

    Default Re: macedonia

    zarax, once i have those units it becomes a downhill battle. its getting to the companions and agemas that is my problem. macedonian early game is so bad. im nearly there, after taking antioch i just need to construct urban barracks.

    dirt_m, unfortunately RTW isnt a very realistic game, which game is? having a 50 man deep phalanx line isnt anymore effective than a 20 man deep phalanx.

  9. #9
    Webba's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by aznflea View Post
    dirt_m, unfortunately RTW isnt a very realistic game, which game is? having a 50 man deep phalanx line isnt anymore effective than a 20 man deep phalanx.
    It is when you start taking casulaties or go up against other phalanxs. But you're right that RTW doesn't do a great job of representing phalanx formation. (both the macedonian and the older forms)
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  10. #10

    Default Re: macedonia

    fair enough. but the unreliablility of the phalanx botheres me. i hate it how they switch weapons. can i mod the descr units folder to get rid of the dagger and make them pike only?

  11. #11
    Webba's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by aznflea View Post
    fair enough. but the unreliablility of the phalanx botheres me. i hate it how they switch weapons. can i mod the descr units folder to get rid of the dagger and make them pike only?
    Like I already said if they switch weapons when you don't want them to give them the stop command and they'll go back to using pikes. It's a small detail but for me it makes the difference between being always annoyed at the useless phalangites and preferring phalanx based factions over any other.
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  12. #12
    gaius_caesar's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by aznflea View Post
    fair enough. but the unreliablility of the phalanx botheres me. i hate it how they switch weapons. can i mod the descr units folder to get rid of the dagger and make them pike only?
    yeah you could but if ever they are flanked , they won't fight the enemies flanking them, they would just hold their spears up high.....

  13. #13

    Default Re: macedonia

    You could. Though I think the pike is ineffective when the men are face to face.

    Expand your borders, a mod based on XGM 5.

  14. #14

    Default Re: macedonia

    so uhhhh how do you guys shape your armies early game?

    this question is kinda irrelevant now that ive got up to antioch

  15. #15

    Default Re: macedonia

    IMO, phalanx is represented pretty realistically in XGM (although, at times, those phalangists seem too human ). We should not forget, that the key in phalanx warfare was to keep the discipline and formation. Once the formation is broken, often massacre would begin. Or, would it be easy to pick up pikes and reform the phalanx with enemy breathing into your face?

  16. #16
    Webba's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: macedonia

    Then that is something that's rather unrealistic about them too since in RTW they do reform very easily. They'll even pick up their pikes and walk slowly back to the formation while a frothing barbarian stabs them in the back.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: macedonia

    zzzzzzzzz phalanx isnt the focus of the thread here. i want to know how to strutuce my early game macedonian army because what i did was spam phalanx and thereuphoroi and sustain heavy losses every battle because my stupid phalanx kept lowering pikes and routing.

  18. #18
    Webba's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: macedonia

    Quote Originally Posted by aznflea View Post
    zzzzzzzzz phalanx isnt the focus of the thread here. i want to know how to strutuce my early game macedonian army because what i did was spam phalanx and thereuphoroi and sustain heavy losses every battle because my stupid phalanx kept lowering pikes and routing.
    Well since Macdeon's early army is usually made up of a spam of phalanx and theurophoroi then you should probably pay attention to us talking about how to use them well. Especially since you keep complaining about their use of the pikes, which many people have already given you a lot of advice about how to manage. If your phalangites are constantly taking heavy casualties from melee they you surely aren't using them well.

    In any case my early Mac army is very similar to Scutarii's. 6-8 Phalangites, 4 javelin armed spearmen (theuro or thora) and, say, 2 hoplites in reserve. I like one unit of peltats to abosrb missile fire and lure cavalry into the phalanx and 1-2 units of archers or slingers if facing enemies with good ranged units, otherwise they're not needed. 1-4 units of light or thes cavalry for chasing down routers, flanking and harrasing. 1 general of course and any remaining slots I fill out with regional mercs.
    Last edited by Webba; December 11, 2008 at 12:26 AM.
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  19. #19
    gaius_caesar's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: macedonia

    wait an army for what? field battles or siege?

  20. #20
    Primicerius
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    Default Re: macedonia

    I use an anvil of 6-8 phalanxes, at least 4 line infantry for the flanks of the phalanx (can be whatever you can get: Hoplites, Thorikitai, Thureopheuroi) but preferably 6, a general, 4 cav (I usually use 2 Greek Cav and 2 Thessalians, but its your choice), and 1-5 missile troops. Missiles vary a lot in my armies, sometimes I like lots sometimes just a few. The only time I use 1 if its a lone peltast unit used just to draw enemy missile fire or to lure the enemy into my pikes.



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