Ptolemaic phalangites

[Shadow_LT]

Why their attack is lower than regular phalangites attack ?(I understand that their defense is lower due to their lighter, desert suited armor)

[DimeBagHo]

IIRC the idea behind the Ptolemaic units is that they had fewer ethnic Greeks and Macedonians to recruit, so they get their good phalangites a little later than the Seleucids, and they don't have an equivalent to the Silver Shields.

[aznflea]

the hellenes had more capable bodies than egyptians. just hink of a black guy and an asian. you should typically get a muscular angry looking black guy and a nerdy skinny guy with glasses when thinking asian. *racism not intended*

[Double X]

the hellenes had more capable bodies than egyptians. just hink of a black guy and an asian. you should typically get a muscular angry looking black guy and a nerdy skinny guy with glasses when thinking asian. *racism not intended*

wow...

[gaius_caesar]

the hellenes had more capable bodies than egyptians. just hink of a black guy and an asian. you should typically get a muscular angry looking black guy and a nerdy skinny guy with glasses when thinking asian. *racism not intended*

not all asians are nerds.... *sniffs*

[Webba]

the hellenes had more capable bodies than egyptians. just hink of a black guy and an asian. you should typically get a muscular angry looking black guy and a nerdy skinny guy with glasses when thinking asian. *racism not intended*

Strange. These days when I think asian I think Bruce Lee and when I think black guy I think Obama. But maybe thats just me...

[Alexander24]

Strange. These days when I think asian I think Bruce Lee and when I think black guy I think Obama. But maybe thats just me...

'at a boy Webba! Thats what I like to see. Sorry for being a little late on this but I found it to be quite amusing!

Oh, as for certain a ethnicity being better suited for Phalanx warfare or not goes back to how wealthy the civilization was. For instance, Greece was not the richest of all civilizations by monetary standards (it was by no means the poorest) and it raised better hoplites until the introduction of longer pikes by a certain general who's name escapes me at present and then further under Phillip II of Macedon. However, Macedon was a rich country in comparison to Greece and raised some of the greatest cavalry seen up until their time of power (Companion Cavalry under Alexander the Great and the Diadochi) and their pikes where great, but cavalry was the strongest point of their army as pikes can only defend you so much (Diadochi placed to much emphasis on the Phalanx and where all defeated systematically by seperate cultures). Body type did not really matter at that point as all cultures where used to manual labor and where much stronger then modern society. The strength of discipline is not dependent on body types, but how often you trained. For the clearest example of this look at Roman Legionaries. Romans where much smaller in stature then other societies (Caesar "Gallic Wars") but their force of discipline made their infantry the greatest in the world. (some have called Caesar's X Legion the Marines of the ancient world). I hope that clears some things up.

[Seleucos of Olympia]

Are Greeks black and Egyptians Asian? I'm confused...

[DimeBagHo]

aznflea: I think it was more complicated than that. The reasons the Greeks and Macedonians made better phalangites were cultural (they grew up with the ideas and values required for fighting in a phalanx), economic (the best soldiers were either professional or landed, so they had time to train), and political (to maintain control of Egypt the Ptolemies had to ensure that the Greek and Macedonian military forces were superior to any native forces). In any case, when the Ptolemies did start to recruit from the native warrior class (the Machimoi) they proved to be quite capable soldiers.

[Shadow_LT]

Still I think it's wrong, that Ptolemies have weaker phalangites, many mods give Diadochi equally strong phalangites, and Ptolemaic Empire's roster isn't too good(no Thorakitai or Thureophoroi, nubians and ethiopians are decent).
One more thing: combat bonus in desert, what it does?

[Maraxus]

Don't think of the Ptolemaic people as inferior warriors, merely less well trained and equipped by their Greek leaders in the Macedonian style of warfare.

[htismaqe]

Nubians and Ethopians aren't decent. They're AWESOME. Nubian Spearmen especially are very versatile.

[Webba]

I can second that! Nubian spearmen are a very good and cheap unit and Nubian Cavalry are much better than their Greek counterparts too.

[CaesarVincens]

Nubian bowmen are the bomb too.

[Shadow_LT]

I increased Ptolemaic phalangites's attack by 2, now they are equal to their counterparts( 1 on 1 before the increase they would get beaten by them badly). Nubian bowmen are good, I rarely use javelin cavalry, but Nubian Spearmen are they really that good? I think it's a decent, cheap unit.

[Stilgar CG]

I find it a bit dull to counter a unit with a same style equally powerful unit. XGM and XGMD brought diversity and balance in unit rosters and unit stats. Fantasy units are gone, as well as most ahistorical units. Still, would be nice to (see more of) those reasonable (from historic/regional point of view) disbalances and mismatches that surprise you and make you try new tactical solutions, use a combination of troops to counter a powerful unit.

This is why I like playing as Thrace, for instance, without relying on Greeks from AOR barracks. If used well, core Thracian units (peltasts, light cavalry, falxmen) can walk over decent Greek or Roman armies, even with new missile accuracy modifiers.

[Webba]

I'm with ME on this one. XGM is not a multiplayer mod and even if it was there's no reason why the factions should be balanced by giving everyone equivalent units with the exact same stats. The Ptolemaic campaign sure isn't anywhere near the hardest campaign and their roster is perfectly capable of winning battles. I don't see a need to change them at all to be honest.

[Shadow_LT]

XGMD is finely balanced, but XGM needs some work in that area. Romans in XGM need to be nerfed.
Phalanx against phalanx of the same class should be a tie, not a crushing victory for one side.

[Stilgar CG]

XGMD is finely balanced, but XGM needs some work in that area. Romans in XGM need to be nerfed.

I also have the feeling that XGMD has a more robust unit stats system. However, the approach to recruiting and economy is also somewhat different: most of the units are available earlier in the game than in XGM and the economic growth is the main holding factor. This makes balancing a more straightforward task, I guess.
Btw, XGMD could still benefit from a few more pre-designed mismatches in unit rosters, I guess, to give certain factions a unique flavour.

In XGM the gradual-release-of-better-units system is well defined and is matched with economic system. Number of units is larger and the task of proper balancing is more difficult. I think DBH and who else contributed did a great job on unit balancing and unit roster.

Phalanx against phalanx of the same class should be a tie, not a crushing victory for one side.

I totally agree with you on this, Shadow_LT. I meant mismatches in unit roster and not (strong) differences in stats of similar units.

Btw, I have a feeling that units upgrades and experiences are usually more important in creating (or compensating) mismatches in units stats and performance on battlefield. A humble weapon upgrade+ one louzy chevron (plus, some bonuses from an experienced general) could often transform a one-to-one phalangists fight in a one-sided victory indeed. But, effect of experience and upgrades is another story.

[htismaqe]

Phalanx against phalanx of the same class should be a tie, not a crushing victory for one side.

Why would you want every faction to be exactly the same? Part of the appeal is learning how to fight using strengths and weaknesses.

Phalanx vs. phalanx of the same should be influenced by morale, training, weapons and their materials, and all sorts of other mitigating factors.

What you've done is eliminate the uniqueness of the Ptolemaic phalangites and their counterparts from the other factions.