Kingdom of Bosnia

[phoenix[illusion]]

this was posted by matko when we started this mod

[phoenix[illusion]]

Bosnia is a land with multiple religion and nations. Conquers are making history, so the real facts will never be known...

Mi smo ljudi cigani sudbinom prokelti
Balkane, balkne, balkane moj...

thread open only for discuss, offensive posts will be deleted.

[il padrino]

agree,

and long live azra-balkan

[Matthæus]

one thing :
last time I spoke to Il_duce he told me that you can change official state religion, so If you play with Bosnia and are unsatisfied with our choice of Krstjani as official religion you can change that in game.

[4th Regiment]

Official title on the Serbian Nemanjic dynasty since crownification in 1217. was “King of the land of Rascia, Doclea, Travunia, Dalmatia and Zachlumia”. Ahh my God, there was no Serbs even in Serbia…it must be populated by those Vlahs, Gypsies and Greeks as King of Bosnia said. Sorry my mistake.

agree,
and long live azra-balkan

I agree, there is a good page with his songs and interviews

http://kurvinisinovi.blog.hr/2006/03/index.html

"Dnevni Avaz - Da li pišete ne hrvatskom jeziku?
Johnny Štulić - To nije hrvatski jezik, to je književni srpski."

PS.

Bosnia is a land with multiple religion and nations.

Agree ! Now it is land of the 3 nations (Serbs, Croats, Muslims) and 3 religions (catholics, ortodox and islam) In time of the start of the mod it was land of the Serbs (in the central and eastern parts) and Croats (in western parts) and in religious therms it was little bit more catholics beacause many Serbs were catholics in the time (especialy at the coast, even Stefan Nemanja was born catholic...)

[Bosnian_King]

one thing :
last time I spoke to Il_duce he told me that you can change official state religion, so If you play with Bosnia and are unsatisfied with our choice of Krstjani as official religion you can change that in game.

And if I play with serbia and I am not satisfied with the oficial religion of "Orthodox Christian" will I be able to change it then too? I mean, if you are going to do this for Bosnia, then do it for all the countries or don't do it at all! We all know that "The Bosnian church" was the official church in medieval Bosnia, right? You should be consequent and objective and fair till the end of this mod just like you was consequent and fair till now. That's may opinion.

If Bosnia does not have one official institutional religion then other countries should not have it either.

[phoenix[illusion]]

And if I play with serbia and I am not satisfied with the oficial religion of "Orthodox Christian" will I be able to change it then too? I mean, if you are going to do this for Bosnia, then do it for all the countries or don't do it at all! We all know that "The Bosnian church" was the official church in medieval Bosnia, right? You should be consequent and objective and fair till the end of this mod just like you was consequent and fair till now. That's may opinion.

If Bosnia does not have one official institutional religion then other countries should not have it either.

why should that be done? i don't see the point of that for other nations. only or bosnia it should be good, because it is not sure that krstjani was main religion. bosnia had also catholics anc orthodox cristians, because bosnia was on border between these two religions. tvrtko accepted krstajni in his country, but that doesn't mean that it was full of krstajnis, in the other hand, most of them (bosnians) were catholics. even pope was sending iquisitors in bosnia because of krstjani. so krstjani was like sect, and bosnia accepted them as religion with full rights.

[phoenix[illusion]]

one thing to be sure. bosnia had 3 religions, but only one nation, bosnians (as south slav tribe, we all know that we got names from the regions that we lived). later as serbia became orthodox country, and croatia chatolic, people find that in common, and as we know today, many people say that chatolics are croatians and orthodox are serbs. so today nationality has a bond with religion, but before it wasn't that case.

[Bosnian_King]

why should that be done? i don't see the point of that for other nations. only or bosnia it should be good, because it is not sure that krstjani was main religion. bosnia had also catholics anc orthodox cristians, because bosnia was on border between these two religions. tvrtko accepted krstajni in his country, but that doesn't mean that it was full of krstajnis, in the other hand, most of them (bosnians) were catholics. even pope was sending iquisitors in bosnia because of krstjani. so krstjani was like sect, and bosnia accepted them as religion with full rights.

I am sorry but that is not true. Krstjani were not a sect. Krstjani were a states religion with had a lot in common with catholicizm. The Bosnian Church was part of the "Bosnian sabor" and an important part. Ask a real historian if the Bosnian church was the only states church and you will get the answer.

Bosnian "Did" together with the "Gosts" and "Strojniks" formed the "court" of the Bosnian sabor. They judged! Bosnian Did crowned Tvrtko as king of Bosnia. Read Serbian writers which wrote about it. I gave you the part of the book:"How Bosnia became a kingdom." it is an very good historian, read it. Or ask matko if the Bosnian church was the states church. "Korijen u Bosne, Crkve Bozije.", or "Vira Bosanska" are just some of the words that the Bosnian kings used, "vira nasa" etc. etc.

[Matthæus]

and all that is totally unimportant for the mod if player can choose religion himself. that should conclude this religious discussion.

[Bosnian_King]

and all that is totally unimportant for the mod if player can choose religion himself. that should conclude this religious discussion.

Ok. You are making the mod and if that's your desicion I will respect that. I only don't understand why Serbia or Bulgaria for example will not have the same possibilities? Bulgaria had different religions. Romania too.

[phoenix[illusion]]

I am sorry but that is not true. Krstjani were not a sect. Krstjani were a states religion with had a lot in common with catholicizm. The Bosnian Church was part of the "Bosnian sabor" and an important part. Ask a real historian if the Bosnian church was the only states church and you will get the answer.

well maybe it was state religion, but still they were heretics by christian churches, and they had some main elements of christianity, so by that facts they are christian sect.
wow, first of all chatolic churches were built by finest materials, while kristjani had churches made by "pile of woods" and second chatolic church had been using people's faith for gaining money and controlling states. these too churches are a lot different in material way, but maybe in spiritual not so, and if we look as people of sense, not of religon, that would make a big difference

[Bosnian_King]

well maybe it was state religion, but still they were heretics by christian churches, and they had some main elements of christianity, so by that facts they are christian sect.
wow, first of all chatolic churches were built by finest materials, while kristjani had churches made by "pile of woods" and second chatolic church had been using people's faith for gaining money and controlling states. these too churches are a lot different in material way, but maybe in spiritual not so, and if we look as people of sense, not of religon, that would make a big difference

It would be better if the Bosnian church should be just the only states church without possibility of changing. Because if you make the possibility of making, let's say, the Orthodox church the states church of the Catholic church...then that situation would be very different from the real history. That was never the case that Catholics or Orthodox Christians were part of the "states church".

Just think one more time about this at least. I think you should listen to your fans too a bit.

[phoenix[illusion]]

Ok. You are making the mod and if that's your desicion I will respect that. I only don't understand why Serbia or Bulgaria for example will not have the same possibilities? Bulgaria had different religions. Romania too.

because in that states were most of them one religion nation. bosnia was always multiple, and if you're gonna play with bosnia, you will surely choose krstjani, so don't know whats problem. And with that all three sides are satisfied. Well if you ask me, it is a such minnor problem, it really doesn't matter if you play with krjanis or chatolics

[Bosnian_King]

because in that states were most of them one religion nation. bosnia was always multiple, and if you're gonna play with bosnia, you will surely choose krstjani, so don't know whats problem. And with that all three sides are satisfied. Well if you ask me, it is a such minnor problem, it really doesn't matter if you play with krjanis or chatolics

I really don't want to sound short minded and I respect whatever your descidssion is. As I said: This mod will be the most objective mod about the balkans and according to me you are doing great work.

The only thing I say is that I do not understand why, you guys, a little bit changed your way of thinking. In the beginning the most important thing was that thing would be "historical correct" and now "it is important that everybody is satisfied."

It is true that there were Orthodox christians in Hum and Katholics in Bosnia and Usora etc. But it is also very clear which relligion was the states relligion. But whatever you decide I will respect that off course. It is just my opinion.

cheers

[Grof]

Ok. You are making the mod and if that's your desicion I will respect that. I only don't understand why Serbia or Bulgaria for example will not have the same possibilities? Bulgaria had different religions. Romania too.

because in medieval Serbia and Bulgaria they had one predominant religion. While medieval Bosnia is allot like Bosnia today where there are 3 different religions. The official historical religion of Bosnia is up in the air and cant really be confirmed because of huge numbers of 3 different religions.

Giving a option to change Serbias religion from orthodox to catholicism makes as much sense as doing the opposite to Hungary at the same time.

[Carpathian Wolf]

I don't even see why we are considering this non sense of a "Bosnian Church". The failure to provide any evidence that it existed during this time is staggering. It's just that some people here want to back up modern nationalism with this revisionistic crap. I'm sorry for saying it but that's all that it is.

[Bosnian_King]

I don't even see why we are considering this non sense of a "Bosnian Church". The failure to provide any evidence that it existed during this time is staggering. It's just that some people here want to back up modern nationalism with this revisionistic crap. I'm sorry for saying it but that's all that it is.

Can someone please just say to this guy to stop trolling this whole forum? His way of communicating I can not describe different than trolling. Just look what he says:

The failure to provide any evidence that it existed during this time is staggering.

And nobody of the moderators of of someone else did get the idea to warn this guy or to explain to him that "every single document of the Bosnian kings and bans talks and proofs that the Bosnian Church existed. "

I will show a vew of these documents and I will mark red the places where "Bosnian Church" or "Bosnian Did", "Bosnian Gost", Bosnian Stojniks" or "Bosnian faith" is being mentioned:





POVELJA GRGURU STIPANIĆU IZ 1323 GODINE - BAN STJEPAN II KOTROMANIĆ



Godine 1323

Az,Sveti Grgur,a zovom Ban Stipan,po milosti Božijoj gospodin svim zemljam` Bosanskim : i Solskim i Usorskim i Donjim krajem i Humskoj zemlji gospodin,i brat moj Vladislav:
Dasva Knezu Grguru velikomu Stipaniću milost svoju vi,naju viru i dušu,dasva mu prvo Čečavu,drugu Hrastuš,treće Une na više Jakeša,četvrto Volović,peto Modrič.
Toj mu damo za njegovu virnu službu tada - kada ga poslasmo prid našimi vlasteli po gospoju,po moju,Caru Bu(ga)rskomu.I u tom nam posluži pravo i virno.
I ja,Ban Stipan,s bratom mojim,s Knezom s Vladislavom,taj sela naju dasv` Knezu Grguru Stipaniću u vike vikom,i njegovu ostalomu - da mu se to ne poreče nikadare,ni njemu ni njegovu ostalome,što bi ga ne opitala Crkva Bosanska. A se pisa Pribisav,dijak Bana Stipana - koji držaše od Save do mora,od Cetine do Drine...


ISPRAVA RAJKOVICIMA IZ 1366 GODINE - KRALJ TVRTKO



Az rab Bozji i svetoga Grgure, a zovom gospodin Ban Tvrtko, po milosti Bozjoj gospodin mnogim Zemljam Bosanskim,gospodin Bosanski,i srbski,i solski,i podrinski i mnogim stranam Bosanskim. Pravi gospodin Ban Tvrtko: kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.
I za tu sluzbu dasmo mu Cuklje u Lasve, i dasmo mu Klopc u Brode i dasmo mu Brlosnik na Uzore Vlsi. I hvala njinju, stavlajemo u vijeki amen. I s timi vasemi predasmo ga u vjeru djedinju i vse Crkve Bosanske. I vse krstjane da mu je ruka. I da mu se ne more svrci vjera krstjanska ni za jedin uzrok.... I da mu se tam njegov dlg nepohudobi nikadar.
I sto ga ne sudi Djed s dva Strojnika s njim. ..... I da ne suzanj nikadar dokle je korijen u Bosne Crkve Bozje. Da o tom ima crkva stati. A tomu svjedoci Dobri Bošnjane : Vojevoda Vlkac, Zupan Crnul, Knez Bogad, Tepcic Belhan, Knez Branko Prinic, Knez Sladoje,....

predasmo ga u vjeru djedinju i vse Crkve Bosanske. I vse krstjane da mu je ruka

Translation:

And we converted him to the faith of the Djed and of the whole Bosnian Church. And may all the Kscans help him. And may the krscan faith be strong in him...

sto ga ne sudi Djed s dva Strojnika

Translation:

And may the Djed judge over him with two "Strojniks"

I da ne suzanj nikadar dokle je korijen u Bosne Crkve Bozje

Translation:

And may he be on the right pad always for as long the roots of Bosnia are present: the God's church.
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POVELJA KRALJA STJEPANA OSTOJE IZ 1404 GODINE


(6. januara 1404)
Dasmo mu sve ono sto je njegovo bilo. Dajemo viditi vsakomu cloviku komu se dostoji - da mi prizvasmo k sebi Vojevodu Pavala Klesica. ....
I s timi ga s vsim pridasmo gospodinu Djedu i njegovim Strojnikom i vsoj Crkvi Bosanskoj, u njih obarovanije. I da mu se ne ucini nikdare nijedno hudo - sto ga ne bi ogledala Crkve Bosanske i vlastele Bosansci.

This is a beutiful document. I will try to translate it a bit:

We gave him all that belonged to him. We showed every man that was nearby that we let the comander Paval Klesic come to us. And then we, with all the people who were present there, gave him to the Djed of the Bosnian church and his Strojnik and with them to the whole Bosnian church. And may nothing happen to him which would not be appreciated by the Bosnian church and the Bosnian nobleman.

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POVELJA IZ 1453 GODINE - HERCEG STJEPAN VUKČIĆ KOSAČA



19.jula 1453
Učinih...s vascijem,milostivijem,srčanijem hotjenjem i pravom roditeljskom,istinojom ljubvom - milost i čast i dobru volju sinu mi,Knezu Vladislavu,kada dojde ka mnije i smjeri se preda mnom.
I dozva do sebe šta je učinio,koju zgrjehu gospodaru velikomu,i što je učinio bezpravdano i suprotivno manije,roditelju svojemu,kada dojde ka mnije,s velicijem smjerstvom i dozva po dostojnom pravdi do sebe.
I reče mi - postaviti opet u moje ruke vlasteli i ine sluge i gradove i prihodke i vse s čim je odašao bio od mene...
I reče mi - da će od sijem sega biti vjeran polag mene gospodaru velikomu i menije...roditelju svojemu,poslušan i ugodan...
I reče mi - da će biti skladan i jedinan s mojijem sinom i bratom svojijem,s Knezom Vlatkom - oba pod moj posluh,na službu i vjernost...
I reče mi - da mi neće ni jednoga suprotivstva po svojoj volji učiniti,nego da će mi ugađati i služiti,lijepo i dobrije i pravo i počteno,kakono ugodni sin svomu roditelju.
I za toj,tako više rečeno učinjenje i objetovanje sina mi,Kneza Vladislava...primam i primih milostivo i pravo i dobrovoljno k sebi opet Kneza Vladislava,za pravoga i ljubimoga sina,i za pravoga brata sina mi Vlatka. I na toj postavismo svjedoke i sreditelje vjere naše : Djeda Bosanskoga i š njim 12 poglavitijeh krstijan i 12 našijeh plemenitijeh vlastela - ako mi svrši Knez Vladislav više rečene objete za moga života,ugoctvom i pravijem posluhom...kakono sin svome roditelju.
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I na toj postavismo svjedoke i sreditelje vjere naše : Djeda Bosanskoga i š njim 12 poglavitijeh krstijan i 12 našijeh plemenitijeh vlastela - ako mi svrši Knez Vladislav više rečene objete za moga života,ugoctvom i pravijem posluhom...kakono sin svome roditelju

And we brought witnesses of our faith. The Bosnian Djed and with him 12 Krstjan leaders and 12 noble nobleman..
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POVELJA IZ 1323 GODINE - BAN STJEPAN II KOTROMANIĆ



Godine 1323

Az sveti Grgur,a zovom Ban Stjepan,gospodin Bosanski,i brat moj Knez Vladislav,da je vidomo vsim zemljam` Bosanskim:
Dasva vjeru i dušu otca naju,gospodina Bana i vsih roditelja naših i svoju,Knezu Vlkosavu,sinu Kneza Hrvatina Ključkoga,pred Djedom Velikim Radoslavom,i pred Gostom Velikim Radoslavom,i pred Starcom Radomirom,i Žunborom,i Vlčkom,i pred vsvom Crkvom,i pred Bosnom.
Da nije u naju Vladislav sužanj ni pogubljenik,i da na nj ne poslušava klevete.I,ako bi u čem sgriješil Vlkoslav,da stane pred dobrimi mužmi da se opravi - a da za jegovo ne pohitava nizaštore.
A ako bisva sije pritvorila bez bez jegove nevjere - da sva otsupila od Boga i ot vjere i da nam nije otčine molitve i materine,i da sva druga Jude.I sije se učini na Mojštri.
I na sijej vjeri dasva Knezu Vlkoslavu dvije župe u djedinu i u isklad,Banice i Vrbanju,i dva grada Ključ i Kotor.I ondje da nije naših vladavca ni sade,razvje kada hoće Vlkoslav.
Dasva one župe,od meje do meje,a ne inom bratu jegovu,ni sinovcu,razvje Knezu Vlkoslavu i jega ostalšemu - a od niju da služi gospodinu oružjem,koliko može najbolje.
A od Lužac,otkole je Vlkoslav pristupil k nama,za deset ljeta,kto te ljubi bez naju srdca - zovi ga!... A sije pisanije svrši se u gosti velikoga hiži,u Radoslali.
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I think really that all those who are trieing to descredit the Bosnian history withoud any knowledge should get warned. That's just trolling!

[Bosnian_King]

And by the way.

I think the Bosnian church as the only states religion is a perfect compromis. The Bosnian church was a mix between the Catholic church and the Orthodox church. That is what many historians concluded. This mix was also enriched by some "heretic" or "protestant" elements. If the makers of this mod stay consequent and if the Bosnian church remains the only states religion then that would not only be historical correct but also catholics and Orthodox christians from Bosnia would be able to identify themselves with that.

[Bosnian_King]

Here is a good preserved church/chappel from medieval Bosnia. It is located at the place where the medieval town of Bobovac was situated.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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Here are some parts of the old town of Jajce. The city where the Turks killed the last Bosnian king:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: