Kingdom of Bosnia

[Bosnian_King]

Dear Tzardoms developers,

Some months ago when I discovered this MOD I asked if "Banate of Bosnia" will be changed in "Kingdom of Bosnia" when the ban Tvrtko was crowned to a king. I saw that some other Bosnians repeated this question but no clear answer came. My question is:

1)Will a transformation take place in the game so that the name Banate changes in kingdom?
2)Or will Bosnia be called a kingdom from the beginning because from Ban Kulin (1180) the Hungarian king considered Bosnia already as independent and he and other rulers sometimes called Ban Kulin even "a king" despite the fact that he was not officially crowned?
3) Will Bosnia stay a banate in the game?

Which of these options will you choose?

All the best

Bosnian_King

[Adnan]

It can be banate at the beginning and then it can change to kingdom. That was already discussed I think.

[phoenix[illusion]]

the first option sounds best, but it depends most of the coders (il_duce and GED), i'm looking forward for this to be done. Changing name from banovina to kingdom could cause some problems, so third option is the easiest one.

[phoenix[illusion]]

edit

[Adnan]

Well it is implemented in Teutonic campaign (Denmark to Kalmar Union). I hope it isnt too difficult to adapt it for other faction.

[phoenix[illusion]]

Well it is implemented in Teutonic campaign (Denmark to Kalmar Union). I hope it isnt too difficult to adapt it for other faction.

well actually you're right, but it's not my job, so i'm just saying some facts. Coders will surley answer this questions

[Matthæus]

just that you all know - "Banate" sounds less "fancy" than "Kingdom" but it does not necessary mean that level of independence is lower. It is just a title.

We will change name - but it will be event related - Tvrtko must be alive and hold certain provinces to trigger the event.

[Bosnian_King]

Great guys! I just hope that Bosnia won't remain a banate till the end of the mod. Kingdom sounds more promissing.

[Bosnian_King]

Did you read my post I posted about the family tree at the "faction of Bosnia" topic? Did you know that after the fall of Bosnia in 1463. a new Bosnian kingdom was formed with the capital in Tesanj and with king Matija Kotromanic? Will you guys take this kingdom, names etc in consideration?

[TVARTKOVICH]

ive just read allmost whole 18 pages in the Banate of Bosnia
had to say al least one thing, if noone takes a look, i dont care
i just must say

when i drew a tatto of a lilly i researched it, a lot
for example, at the time, i understood that serbs have a lilly, wich they took from Hungarians (beacouse of some marriage)
sry for my poor knoledge about history, but ...
lilly in the bosnian flag is called lillium bosniacum, and it was on stecak
that kinda means that that sign is if not the only, then the most important one
ive seen pictures of Bosnian soldiers, and some of them had a (ne znam reci polumjesec) moon
or a cross, and even if those signs were used, allmost nothing can be without lillium bosniacum

P.S.
great work, keep it up

[armin_tz]

ive just read allmost whole 18 pages in the Banate of Bosnia
had to say al least one thing, if noone takes a look, i dont care
i just must say

when i drew a tatto of a lilly i researched it, a lot
for example, at the time, i understood that serbs have a lilly, wich they took from Hungarians (beacouse of some marriage)
sry for my poor knoledge about history, but ...
lilly in the bosnian flag is called lillium bosniacum, and it was on stecak
that kinda means that that sign is if not the only, then the most important one
ive seen pictures of Bosnian soldiers, and some of them had a (ne znam reci polumjesec) moon
or a cross, and even if those signs were used, allmost nothing can be without lillium bosniacum

P.S.
great work, keep it up

About the stuff I bolded... Lilium bosniacum is endemic in bosnia, and that's why it was a symbol on shields, stecaks, 'n' stuff.. And for those who think it has smth to do with France, they're wrong... and crosses and halfmoons (ovako se kaze ), well crosses were rarely used by heretics, but some of the christians used it, and halfmoons... well before the turks, there was aboslutely NO ISLAM in Bosnia, and on stecaks they were just used for decorations... Since I'm new here, can someone tell me where can I find pictures of bosnian army

[Adnan]

You can find some pictures in this thread http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=139522

And polumjesec is crescent

[Carpathian Wolf]

Honestly just let them have the "Kindom" name if it means so much. Who cares?


How is the mod going anyway?

[Bosnian_King]

Dear Tzardoms developers,

I found some information concerning this "topic". As far as we know a king was considered someone who considered his right to rule as "god's will". Please correct me if I am wrong.

So if a ruler wrote in lét's say 1200 or 1300. "I Bosnian Ban, by god's will ruler of many Bosnian countries" then we can say that thar ruler, or ban, considered himself a king or at least something that comes very close to a king. Because that's the definition of a king: A king is someone who considered his right to rule as "god's will". If these rulers consequently called themelves "Rulers of Bosnia (or Bosnian countries) by God's will." and if they managed to maintain the political independence then then we can only say that they really were kings. To that conclusion came the profesor from the Harvard University "Andreas Rieldemayer" and he also writes that Bosnia was a kingdom by 1200. already.

Bosnian Ban "Matej Ninoslav" calls himself "Veliki Ban Bosanski po milosti Bozijoj" or: "Great Bosnian Ban by God's will". So if we take in consideration that this ban died in 1250. then we can easely say that Bosnia can be considered as a kingdom from the beginning of the mod. Altough she was not recognized by the neigbouring countries as a kingdom the Bosnian rulers considered themselves independent from Hungaria from 1150. and further. Bosnian Ban Kulin defeated the Hungarian king in Bosnia and calls himself "Dominus of Bosnia" and changes his title from Ban into "Lord Ban". Ban Prijezda, Ban Ninoslav, Ban Kotroman all call themselves Ban "by god's will. For Ban Boric it is not entirely vlear if he was independent from Hungaria but the Croatian profesor Nada Klaic wrote a very detail book about this and she concluded that also Ban Boric was an independen Bosnian ruler. Finally Lord Ban Tvrtko defeat the Hungarian king Ludovik at Bosnian soil and he managed to become a recognized king. But this does not mean that the rulers before Tvrtko did not consider themselves kings. As I shoed to you, they did. The writer of the pope also, for example, wrote to Ban Kulin a letter in which he calls him "Banus Culinus, the king of Bosnia". And others did the same. So the line between kings and independent Bans, who considered themselves totaly independent and who were able to maintan his political independence by millitary victories or diplomacy, is very thin or does not exist at all.

[Bosnian_King]

Blagaj:

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Kljuc:

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Stolac:

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Vranduk:

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Bobovac:

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Bobovac:

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Mogorjelo:

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Visoko:

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Srebrenik:

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tESANJ:

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bUZIM:

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Ljubuski:

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[Bosnian_King]

Can someone who knows Bosnian/ Serbian/ Croatian tell me in how far this is true. It is a Serbian source and it tells about an invasion of the Serbian Tzar Dusan in Bosnia with 80.000 man! :

Kako je ban Stjepan II odbijao svaki razgovor, to car Dušan tokom oktobra meseca 1350. godine pokrene veliku vojsku na Bosnu. "Krenuvši na put s caricom, dođe na granicu Bosne, kod reke Drine, s pedeset hiljada konjanika i trideset hiljada pešaka" (Mavro Orbin). Znajući da ne može izdržati direktan sudar sa carskom vojskom, ban Stjepan II je u samome početku pokušao da organizuje neku vrstu gerilske taktike. "Ali uvidevši na kraju da neće moći odoleti neprijateljskoj vojsci, poseče mnogo velikih stabala pomoću kojih zakrči prolaze, te osta povučen u šumama i planinama kao u nekim tvrđavama, braneći s mnogo ljudi sve prolaze kroz koje se moglo prodreti s vojskom u Bosnu" (Mavro Orbin). Taktika je bila dobro zamišljena i moguće je da bi carevoj vojsci ban naneo mnogo štete i možda do kraja ga naterao na povlačenje. Iako osion i veoma svojevoljan, ban Stjepan II se pokazao kao nepokolebljiv i veoma hrabar. Međutim, ni car Dušan nije bio naivan. Uspeo je da uz pomoć mita unese razdor među Stjepanovu vlastelu, tako da je dosta njegovih ljudi prešlo na carevu stranu. Samim tim i otpor koji je zamišljen nije mogao biti i sproveden.

Ostavši bez vojske morao je ban Stjepan II da misli kako će da spasi glavu. Sa ono malo preostalih ljudi povukao se u planinu, ali ni u njih nije imao poverenja plašeći se izdaje. "Stoga odluči da se povuče u planine s malim brojem svojih ljudi, koje je i dalje, ipak, menjao kako ga neko od njih ne bi izdao" (Mavro Orbin). Slomivši tako odmah u početku svaki otpor car Dušan je sa svojom vojskom postepeno zauzimao Bosnu. Uskoro je stigao pod Bobovac, jedno veoma jako utvrđenje, u kojem se nalazila banova ćerka Jelisaveta. "Baci se još na osvajanje utvrđenja Bobovca, u koje se bila sklonila Jelisaveta, jedinica kći bana Stjepana, koja je tada bila devojčica, a kasnije žena Ludovika, ugarskog kralja, i majka Marije, žene cara Žigmunda" (Mavro Orbin). Do kraja se pokazalo d je ovaj tvrdi grad ipak suviše utvrđen da bi se mogao brzo osvojiti, a osim toga ni car nije pokazivao neku posebnu volju, pa je opsada uskoro skinuta. Nakon toga, car Dušan je poslao vojsku da pleni po Bosni. "Utaborivši se tu, posla deo vojske da pleni prema reci Cetini i onoj drugoj reci, Krki, prema Hrvatskoj, a on s ostalim delom vojske skrenu prema Humskoj oblasti" (Mavro Orbin).

Možda je car Dušan očekivao da će ban Stjepan II ponuditi pregovore, međutim, to što se Bobovac održao moglo je banu samo da pruži daljnjeg podstreka u otporu. Ko zna kako bi se sve to završilo da iznenada ne dođe do cara Dušana vest da su Vizantinci počeli ofanzivu u Makedoniji i da tamo stvari jako loše stoje. Kako mu je taj deo države u tome momentu bio važniji on odmah pokrene vojsku ka Makedoniji, ostavivši neke garnizone da sačuvaju osvojeni Hum. Međutim, kako se car Dušan povukao iz Bosne tako je ban za samo par meseci povratio sve ono što je car osvojio. Iako nije dobio ni jednu bitku, ban Stjepan II je na kraju, uz splet srećnih okolnosti, pobedio u ovom ratu.

http://www.rastko.org.yu/istorija/zfajf ... c486040899

Izvor je srpska stranica za historiju i kulturu. A knjiga je veoma dobra i preporučujem da je pročitate. Sigurno ćete naći dosta stvari koje do sada niste znali.

I would really like to know this....

[Sarmatian]

Basically true, except that number of forces could be exaggerated. I don't think medieval Serbia could have fielded such a force. Everything else is pretty much true, campaign that was practically won then abandoned because there were more pressing concerns elsewhere...

[Despot Janko]

Nemam pojma čoveče pitao sam profesora istorije on kaže da je ovo tačno :O

[Bosnian_King]

Yes the number of forces indeed sound exaggerated. But did the tzar indeed won the battle almost? And in how far wad the guerilla tactic succesufull? What is the source that mentions the number 80.000?

[Sarmatian]

It's been a long time since I read the book, so there's a good chance I'm mistaken but IIRC Mavro Orbini didn't cite his sources and he lived in XV or XVI century so he isn't a contemporary witness.

Relations between Serbia and Bosnia at that time were extremely complicated. Venice was on good terms with both and constantly tried to end all conflicts. Dubrovnik also pressured both sides to end it because it endangered the trade routes.

As far as size of the army is concerned there's no certain way to know it, but my guess is that Dusan's Serbia could have fielded a 50,000-60,000 men strong army, including foreign mercenaries...

Guerrilla tactics obviously weren't very successful as Serbian army reached Bobovac and pillaged the territory extensively. Bosnia had no chance to win in a prolongued conflict with Serbia. Serbian army was significantly greater, better equipped and under competent commanders. The best Stjepan could hope for is that some problem will arise somewhere else which would force Dusan to abandon the campaign.

I'm not really an expert on the issue, so I can't be more specific. You'll have to research it yourself if you want to know more. There aren't many internet sources so you'd have to do it in the "old school" way