Rome overpowered?

[Quercia]

Greetings,

I've been playing the German campaign for some time. I've had my problems facing both Gaul armies together, but finally succumbed them to the point I can suck both territoriums up in my domain (I hold northern france - Independent Gaul is left in the English isles and Gaul is in southern france).

One "fun" thing is that Rome just come up from the southern borders of Germania at Swiss and Austria. Now, it isn't heavily defended as both the Swiss and Austrian towns are still rebel (with huge armies in it). Now Rome comes up with 2 full stacks... And attack me after getting the rebel towns.

Because my unit upkeep is so rediculously high, I will certainly struggle to face them at all (Gaul has many armies left in south france). Now, in custom battles basic Hastati faced off against anything I could throw against them. 1 on 1 battles between Hastati vs Axemen/Dark Raiders/Beserkers (!) resulted in the Hastati winning every time. I mean Dark Raiders and Beserkers are certainly higher up the tech tree... how can they lose against the lowest of Rome's armies - the Hastati? I mean they got Principe and Triarii too. I won't even speak about those Legionary armies, who make the Hastati look like wimps.

Another thing was when I battled just 3 (!) Triarii units + general... they were pretty experienced but I faced them with 8 units - 2 merc spear warbands (with 2 exp.), 1 axemen unit and 2 German spearmen warbands, alongside 1 Barbarian Cavalry unit and 2 General units!

I lost big time. 340 Romans beat 550 German barbarians... I killed their General + 100 triarii... so 2 full were left! Okay they have 32 def and 11 attack due to the exp, but seriously... Whatever I do, swarm, one on one, barbarian cavalry rear attacks.... they just keep 'eager' morale and won't break, even with their general dead!

I know Scythians are pretty annoying. And I don't know how to face off against the Greek phalanxes. I fear that the barbarian armies certainly are left out of power, and have no real solution to anything except throwing many stacks at one of theirs...

How am I ever going to beat their full stacks (I'm meaning the Roman ones) ?

Cheers,
-Q

[Webba]

Romans are supposed to be pretty powerful but then again, so is Germany. What difficulty are you playing on?

[Quercia]

I'm playing on hard/hard... I guess I really tend to feel it at this level vs "superior" powers. To be honest the barbarians haven't got anything that sets them apart from anyone else, other than Beserkers (yet they aren't unbeatable... they didn't form much of a challenge to one unit of Hastati).

I replayed the battle against the 3 Triarii + General. He had sent one Triarii unit to the front against my reinforment army (he besieges my town). It includes the whole army I have except one spear warband. I swarmed him with the 7 units I had (1 x axemen, 2 x merc spearmen, 1x spearmen, 2 x general units + 1 x barbarian cavalry). I finally broke the unit after killing his general with all my cavalry.

Then I swarmed the next Triarii unit. It eventually broke as well. The last one retreated, but I couldn't bring it down.

In the end it was a clear victory for me, 170 casualties to the Germans and 233 casualties for the Romans. That was a good result. But there will come a day when the Romans are equally big, and then I'm in big trouble at the least.

Cheers for answering,
-Q

[Zarax]

hard gives a bonus to the AI units, considering that rome's founding monument gives them a bonus already you're facing a pretty tough challenge.
If you have BI use your spearmen in shieldwall to pin the romans down and get some armoured axemen to do the hacking job.
The raiders are best left in the background or used behind the enemy as they scare infantry.

[RedFox]

It seems that XGM needs some serious stat balancing, considering what Quercia said. Early Roman army wasn't all that magnificent and a Hastati should be somewhere between or equal of Sword and Spear Warband. I think XGM always had overpowered Romans, which just makes playing with Romans even on VH/VH way too easy.
If anything, it should be the Barbarians that are brutally powerful yet with weak defense, while Romans should boast more defense and less brute power. In a well balanced game, on M/M, units with a similar price tag should be equal in fighting power. If the Barbarian troops are indeed more useless, they should at least have severely reduced price and upkeep compared to Romans. At least, that's the case in xgmD.

[atraps]

It seems that XGM needs some serious stat balancing, considering what Quercia said. Early Roman army wasn't all that magnificent and a Hastati should be somewhere between or equal of Sword and Spear Warband. I think XGM always had overpowered Romans, which just makes playing with Romans even on VH/VH way too easy.
If anything, it should be the Barbarians that are brutally powerful yet with weak defense, while Romans should boast more defense and less brute power. In a well balanced game, on M/M, units with a similar price tag should be equal in fighting power. If the Barbarian troops are indeed more useless, they should at least have severely reduced price and upkeep compared to Romans. At least, that's the case in xgmD.

Well perhaps so, but he is playing at hard/hard so it should be hard.

The problem with weakening the Romans is it reduces the chance of its survival at the beginning of the game, with Pyrrhus and Carthage right at its doorstep. It would be a disappointment if Rome wasn't there when it's time to conquer Italy, well it would for me anyways. One way we could do it, is by removing Pyrrhus if Rome isn't being played by the player. Then we could effectively weaken them without the fear of them being likely destroyed.

[Scutarii]

^^ RedFox, you are my hero now. Thats exactly what my only gripe with XGM has been the entire time I have played it (2+ years now). Romans get a ridiculous chevron bonus, when they're troops are already ridiculously overpowered. L5 Silver Shield Legionairres have the same stats as L3 Roman Legionairres. The Richest empire in the east, should be able to field an elite better than the Roman line troops, even if Legionairres are good. Its a similar system with the Hyspsists... L5 Agema Hyspasists have the same stats as L3 Legionairres. Normal Hyspsists are pretty much the same as Principes. Gallic, Iberian and German troops pretty much all get owned by Romans in a 1 on 1 situation. The best of these three is definitely the Germans, because of their AP attribute... But Pre-Marian troops still kick similar German units asses. I think the first order of the day is some Roman unit rebalancing..

[RedFox]

The survival of Rome isn't such a huge issue here. There is always the AI income and exp bonus for the troops. That alone will make sure that Rome stays well on its feet. Even without invincible legionaries.

[Athenogoras]

Perhaps using secondary hitpoints on the Romans. Lowering their fighting stats but adding some secondary hp. Making it easier to gain victory in manuell battles but harder in autocalc.

[DimeBagHo]

I tried a few tests on medium.

Basic Gallic Swordsmen vs Hastati: the Gauls won with around 25 men left. Might have gone the other way if the Romans had made better use of their Pila.

Basic German Axemen vs Hastati: a close fight with the Romans eventually getting the upper hand, to win with around 25 men left. With Nightraiders it was a very even fight, but the Romans broke first.

Chosen Swordsmen vs Legionaries: the Romans got an early advantage from throwing their Pila, but the Gauls caught up and beat them with about 40 men left.

Chosen Axemen vs Legionaries: throwing axes vs pila worked out about even, but the Germans crushed the Romans in melee to win with about 65 men left.

Chosen Axemen vs Praetorians: very close fight, it looked like the Germans had a slight advantage in melee, but the battles went either way depending on which side got an early advantage from thrown weapons.

It seems to me that the Gauls and Germans have an advantage in basic unit stats. In campaign the Romans have a better economy than the barbarians, the AI gets a 2 exp bonus, and the Romans often get more exp and upgrades from temples and smith buildings. If you play on hard then of course the AI will get a bonus from that as well.

So if you fight as a barbarian faction against Rome then you will face an uphill battle, but I think that's the way it should be. If you fight as Rome against the barbarians then your only real advantage will be having more advanced cities to recruit from, and a more secure starting position.

[Webba]

Yeah, playing as Rome against Germany certainly isn't a walk in the park either. I don't think the roman unit stats have anything wrong with them as far as balance goes since it's just their ai bonuses that make them ridiculously good. I do think that some of the elite units of other factions need a little bost relative to Legionaries though. Agema hypaspists, Sacred band (greek and carthage) and Silver Shield Legionaries all are elites and should really have some sort of advantage over legionaries.

[Scutarii]

I do think that some of the elite units of other factions need a little bost relative to Legionaries though. Agema hypaspists, Sacred band (greek and carthage) and Silver Shield Legionaries all are elites and should really have some sort of advantage over legionaries.

For me, this is a key point. Could the elites of the greek factions stats be raised a little? Agema (and normal) Hyspasists should kick Roman legionairres ass in a melee. The Legionairres advantage should be their cost effectiveness, not their ability to break even with the absolute elites of another faction... But again, the Hyspasists should be a lot more expensive than the Roman legionairres.

[Quercia]

I tried a few tests on medium.

Basic Gallic Swordsmen vs Hastati: the Gauls won with around 25 men left. Might have gone the other way if the Romans had made better use of their Pila.

Basic German Axemen vs Hastati: a close fight with the Romans eventually getting the upper hand, to win with around 25 men left. With Nightraiders it was a very even fight, but the Romans broke first.

Chosen Swordsmen vs Legionaries: the Romans got an early advantage from throwing their Pila, but the Gauls caught up and beat them with about 40 men left.

Chosen Axemen vs Legionaries: throwing axes vs pila worked out about even, but the Germans crushed the Romans in melee to win with about 65 men left.

Chosen Axemen vs Praetorians: very close fight, it looked like the Germans had a slight advantage in melee, but the battles went either way depending on which side got an early advantage from thrown weapons.

It seems to me that the Gauls and Germans have an advantage in basic unit stats. In campaign the Romans have a better economy than the barbarians, the AI gets a 2 exp bonus, and the Romans often get more exp and upgrades from temples and smith buildings. If you play on hard then of course the AI will get a bonus from that as well.

So if you fight as a barbarian faction against Rome then you will face an uphill battle, but I think that's the way it should be. If you fight as Rome against the barbarians then your only real advantage will be having more advanced cities to recruit from, and a more secure starting position.

You mean custom battle on medium? I didn't know you could set the difficulty on there.

Either way, if you could set custom battle difficulty, I would probably have left it at medium. And everytime I played, the Germans lost against Hastati. Though, this was one on one (Beserkers, Dark Raiders and Axemen).

The custom battle set up for Germania is a bit weird though. In campaign games, I can build Heavy Spearmen, but they aren't there in the custom battles. And then you have Dark Raiders in custom battle, but you can't build them in the campaign!

Either way, I decided to test this precisely. 1 Hastati costs 600 denarii and 300 upkeep. 1 German Spear Warband costs 400 and upkeep 200. So I took 2 Hastati units and 3 Spearmen units. The result was a decisive win for the Germans.

Upon that, I built up my next tactics against these buggers:

• Cavalry charges could be useful as Hastati and Principe aren't spearmen.
• Spear Warbands and Heavy Spearmen have pretty high defence and normal attack (14|22 def, 7|10 respectively). These units are "low" in upkeep (heh, for xgm standard) and they can face off Romans better than the axemen.
• I will use Axemen on the flanks. Sweep around and flank or rear charge.
• Use lots of missiles. Peltasts can be useful now with all that armour walking about.

I also fought my battle against a huge Roman army. Well, my army was bigger

I was 1200 Romans vs 2000 Germans haha. I had a 9 star general with me and he had none, just a captain. The battle odds were even but that didn't dismay me. He also had 2 Triarii units with about 6 exp (spear upg. + exp). They were the last 2 remaining units too.

But they ran like usual. I left 20 of them alive... from 1080 men haha.

I just wonder how it will be when he does come up with a full stack, say 20. These were 20 German units vs 12 Roman units. And what if he has a high general in there? I would be in trouble, whatever tactics I will use.

Cheers,
-Q

[Webba]

You mean custom battle on medium? I didn't know you could set the difficulty on there.

The custom battle set up for Germania is a bit weird though. In campaign games, I can build Heavy Spearmen, but they aren't there in the custom battles. And then you have Dark Raiders in custom battle, but you can't build them in the campaign!

Upon that, I built up my next tactics against these buggers:

• Cavalry charges could be useful as Hastati and Principe aren't spearmen.
• Spear Warbands and Heavy Spearmen have pretty high defence and normal attack (14|22 def, 7|10 respectively). These units are "low" in upkeep (heh, for xgm standard) and they can face off Romans better than the axemen.
• I will use Axemen on the flanks. Sweep around and flank or rear charge.
• Use lots of missiles. Peltasts can be useful now with all that armour walking about.

But they ran like usual. I left 20 of them alive... from 1080 men haha.

I just wonder how it will be when he does come up with a full stack, say 20. These were 20 German units vs 12 Roman units. And what if he has a high general in there? I would be in trouble, whatever tactics I will use.

Cheers,
-Q

Yeah, XGM isn't set up for custom battles or multiplayer at all so the unit selection and prices there will be really strange at times.

Playing as Carthage what I found most effective against rome was indeed Cavalry and Javelins. Rome's units tend to be high defense wich AP javelins can bypass most of. Attack from the left and rear to remove shield defense as well. A lack of spear units (apart from the blasted Triarii) means cavalry can cause serious damage as well.

If he has a high general I wish you good luck killing him early. It can actually be an advantage because the death of a really really good general can cause a massive moral hit that may route an otherwise dangerous army.

[Zarax]

EB got the balance right:

Principes and legionaries could kick ass against most opposition for the same price but should loose against more expensive troops.
Post marius in EB the legions gets a numerical advantage while keeping pretty much the same fighting power as principes.

[Scutarii]

One of the things I love about EB. I think XGM could definitely take an idea there.

[aznflea]

the slow pace kills EB unfortunately. their ideas are extremely good but the implementation of it creates way too many CTDs. i just got too angry when i got a CTD 4 times

[Zarax]

That's why we have the PMP, to reimplement great ideas the XGM way.