Rename WRE rebels?

**seriousbusiness** · December 03, 2008, 10:05 AM

It seems fitting that the WRE 'rebels' should be renamed to 'Kingdom of Soissons' or 'Soissons Kingdom' or suchlike to indicate that they weren't rebels so much as looking out for their own territory in the abscence of real Roman authority (being physically separated and probably denied most military support) and to indicate that the origins of the middle ages were already well under way. It was short-lived though so there are few sources on it, hence much confusion. Just my opinion though. Your mod, Rio

**Riothamus** · December 03, 2008, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by seriousbusiness

It seems fitting that the WRE 'rebels' should be renamed to 'Kingdom of Soissons' or 'Soissons Kingdom' or suchlike to indicate that they weren't rebels so much as looking out for their own territory in the abscence of real Roman authority (being physically separated and probably denied most military support) and to indicate that the origins of the middle ages were already well under way. It was short-lived though so there are few sources on it, hence much confusion. Just my opinion though. Your mod, Rio

Good point...will give you credit if I use it

I had them as The Roman Gauls in the campaign faction description...maybe better as the Romano Gauls?

**seriousbusiness** · December 03, 2008, 12:58 PM

Gallo-Romans or Romano-Gauls would be another option. Evidence is rare and uncertain. A popular term is 'Domain of Soissons', I think that's the best of them all because although it operated somewhat like an early kingdom, it was one of the Sub-Roman states but was not a kindgom de jure. Sygarius took the title 'Dux'. Sygarius ruled nominally as only a provincial leader but was necessarily autonomous (there was no other choice and he relied heavily on Frankish help in repulsing a Visigothic invasion, although they soon turned on him).

Therefore having the faction name as 'Domain of Soissons' or 'Kingdom of Soissons' and the unit description as 'Gallo-Roman' (as in "Gallo-Roman Large City") seems suitable.

I hope you don't mind the criticism, but the province count for victory is tediously high right now. 70 provinces for WRE rebels is totally unreasonable and once you get ~40 it is pretty obvious everything will fall into place. 45-50 would be suitable for a faction like this. Making the campaign longer is certainly not making any of them any more fun or historical. Also adding more relevant necessary provinces (eg one or two provinces of Gaul/Iberia/Italia/some of Germania) would help add some needed direction to the campaign.

Another thing - if the purpose of the 463 campaign is to show the collapse of Rome and the emergence of the post-Rome situation, 'Kingdom of Soissons' is more suitable if the faction outlives the WRE. If the WRE collapsed and Soissons survived, very likely at some point it actually would have become a true kingdom. If the purpose is to show Rome's final struggle, 'Domain' would imply they are still loyal to Rome's cause (but not the Emperor) but cut off and independant only by necessity.

**Riothamus** · December 05, 2008, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by seriousbusiness

Gallo-Romans or Romano-Gauls would be another option. Evidence is rare and uncertain. A popular term is 'Domain of Soissons', I think that's the best of them all because although it operated somewhat like an early kingdom, it was one of the Sub-Roman states but was not a kindgom de jure. Sygarius took the title 'Dux'. Sygarius ruled nominally as only a provincial leader but was necessarily autonomous (there was no other choice and he relied heavily on Frankish help in repulsing a Visigothic invasion, although they soon turned on him).

Therefore having the faction name as 'Domain of Soissons' or 'Kingdom of Soissons' and the unit description as 'Gallo-Roman' (as in "Gallo-Roman Large City") seems suitable.

I hope you don't mind the criticism, but the province count for victory is tediously high right now. 70 provinces for WRE rebels is totally unreasonable and once you get ~40 it is pretty obvious everything will fall into place. 45-50 would be suitable for a faction like this. Making the campaign longer is certainly not making any of them any more fun or historical. Also adding more relevant necessary provinces (eg one or two provinces of Gaul/Iberia/Italia/some of Germania) would help add some needed direction to the campaign.

Another thing - if the purpose of the 463 campaign is to show the collapse of Rome and the emergence of the post-Rome situation, 'Kingdom of Soissons' is more suitable if the faction outlives the WRE. If the WRE collapsed and Soissons survived, very likely at some point it actually would have become a true kingdom. If the purpose is to show Rome's final struggle, 'Domain' would imply they are still loyal to Rome's cause (but not the Emperor) but cut off and independant only by necessity.

I'm leaning toard the Domain of Soissons, Aegdious in 463AD was very much loyal to the Roman Empire but he was an enemy to Ricimer. He probably would have marched down into Ravanna and taking the Western Empire by force if not for the serious surging threat of the Visigoths.

criticism is always good if its constructive

Marked victory conditions down to 60 and strengthened them.