Everything ends.

[The Dude]

This is something I got into a discussion about today.

Everything ends eventually. Nothing is spared from this rule. If you look at our history, it's full to the brim of dead gods that nobody worships anymore. Norse gods, Egyptian gods, Roman/Greek gods, old nature gods, Mayan suncults and many more I'm not even aware of.

It's only logical to assume that, one day in the future (nobody knows when), our current gods will be added to that list. And they will then be replaced by faiths that will also see their end eventually.

Knowing this, how is it possible to be a follower of any religion? Why follow something that you know is doomed to end eventually anyway? All the scriptures, all the teachings, none of that stuff will mean anything. There isn't anybody in this world who still sacrifices babies to Moloch the Firelord. There isn't anybody (ok, maybe a few) who still holds festivals in the name of Dionysus. So likewise, christmas, ramadan or chanuka (how is that spelled again?) will eventually no longer be celebrated either.

Why then believe in these gods and adhere to these religions? They may be important now but one day they won't mean anything and all that means is that it's -your- life that has been wasted in the following of empty teachings.

So when I discussed this today at college, the muslims argued that Islam was eternal because Allah said so (circular reasoning ftw), and the christians argued that Christianity was eternal because no preceeding faith had a book like the bible. As if a book would guarantee eternity.

So, I'm looking for some answers from other people here, really. What makes you believe in your god when you know that one day nobody will?

[Da Skinna]

Sisyphus. Look him up.

[Bovril]

The finality of many teleological faiths is guaranteed for them by the fact the world is going to end. The only have to last till it does.

[The Dude]

The finality of many teleological faiths is guaranteed for them by the fact the world is going to end. The only have to last till it does.

But that's not the same as a faith ending. If the world ends, god would be no less real for it (assuming he is, for a moment). But if a faith ends then that's it. A god loses his legitimacy.

So essentially what many organised religions are saying is that they would be eternal if it wasn't for the inconvience of the apocalypse? Do I have that right?

Sisyphus. Look him up.

There seems to be a great deal that Sisyphus' task and the repeated rise and fall of organised religions have in common. Is that also what you're implying?

[Ciabhán]

It seems to me if we go by the old idea that god/s derive power from their worshippers that when the world comes to an end and no one is left to worship that the god/s die with us. Going with the Abrahamic idea faith in God would carry over to the next life/world. In one case what faith one chooses would not matter in the end as the god/s and whatever versions of the afterlife they support through their power die and everything fades to nothingness. In the second example faith carries over even after the end so I guess it would make a difference to those folks. In a strictly earthly sense it doesn't make any difference. As you said faiths die or change to something so different as to be new and this cycle seems constant as one culture and it's majority faith comes into power.

[The Dude]

As you said faiths die or change to something so different as to be new and this cycle seems constant as one culture and it's majority faith comes into power.

Yes. So what point is there in believing in any faith if it ends up being a dead religion just like everything else?

[Ciabhán]

Yes. So what point is there in believing in any faith if it ends up being a dead religion just like everything else?

Isn't one if you ask me. But then again I am one o those evil apostate atheist types.

[Thanatos]

Everyone's hoping that their religion is the one that DOESN'T die.

[The Dude]

But it will! Nothing is exempt from the rule of finality. So people hope, sure. But it's idle hope?

[Thanatos]

I'm just saying how people think.

[Adhamh Ashashi]

Nothing will never end.


What is Nothing though?

When God (my opinion) decides to end Space and Time there will still be something there.

It's called Nothing...... think abou tit.

Cause it confuses me

[The Dude]

Nothing will never end.


What is Nothing though?

When God (my opinion) decides to end Space and Time there will still be something there.

It's called Nothing...... think abou tit.

Cause it confuses me

This isn't about space and time though. It's just about religions in particular. Like all things, religions will end. One day nobody will believe the things that you believe today. What does that knowledge mean to you?

EDIT: I'm finding religious feedback in this thread notably absent. It's your opinions that I'm after, guys

[Chaigidel]

whats the point of anything really? to make our time a little more interesting thats all.

but Nothingness is the shadow of god, like a small mirror holding a perfect image of gods true face, thus to see god blinds, to know god is to know madness-- yet it is there, nothingness merely its shadow cast across all of existence as it breathes in our lives.

so to say having a limited amount of time makes it somewhat more special yes?

[Garrigan]

Pretty much you're saying that Humans create gods, not the other way round? Yeah, I'd tend to agree with you there.

But they adapt. You say Christmas will die out, maybe in its current form. But look how it has adapated. There used to be the Pagan festival of Yule around that time, then the Romans had Saturnelia at the same rough time to. Christianity adopted that date as one of its major religious dates-then its adapted again, and for most people (I'd hazard) Christmas is a fairly secular holiday.

My point is, that although a religion might fail, part of it might evolve to become part of a new religion.

[Musthavename]

But it will! Nothing is exempt from the rule of finality. So people hope, sure. But it's idle hope?

Infinity. By it's very definition its exempt from being finite, or having an end, whatever.

[Ciabhán]

Infinity. By it's very definition its exempt from being finite, or having an end, whatever.

Is there actually an infinite universe though or is it only so large that we have not found the end? Is the infinity of time supported only by the power of god/s? Is infinity a concept of the human mind created to understand a length of time or a measure of distance we cannot comprehend? What does exist the moment our universe ceases to exist. Can we really consider nothing to be something and thus to be infinite? Are the words and thoughts humans use to understand these concepts too small and limited to truely represent reality? Is nothing something only because we have a word to describe our viewpoint? If so does that word really create a reality of nothing? Infinity brings up many more questions than it answers.

[Musthavename]

Infinity is much akin to Quantum Theory. It works, but we can never understand it.

Regardless, it is perfectly reasonable for something to be infinite. It's also perfectly reasonable for nothing to be infinite. Point is, something being infinite is a distinct possbility, and thus, it cannot end.

[Ciabhán]

Infinity is much akin to Quantum Theory. It works, but we can never understand it.

Regardless, it is perfectly reasonable for something to be infinite. It's also perfectly reasonable for nothing to be infinite. Point is, something being infinite is a distinct possbility, and thus, it cannot end.

A possibility does not guarantee anything and therefore we do not know that anything is infinite. We must then assume that everything humankind can create or understand must end. Just creating a word for a concept does not make a concept real.

[The Dude]

Infinity is much akin to Quantum Theory. It works, but we can never understand it.

Regardless, it is perfectly reasonable for something to be infinite. It's also perfectly reasonable for nothing to be infinite. Point is, something being infinite is a distinct possbility, and thus, it cannot end.

But this thread does not discuss infinity. It discusses the simple fact that no religion in the history of mankind has been infinite. In fact, nothing in the history of mankind has been infinite. So today's religions will not be infinite either, meaning that when you know such a thing, believing in their proposed gods is already pointless.

I was hoping for some of the more religious minded people to come and challenge that stance, but instead I'm looking at atheists discussing semantics

[Ciabhán]

But this thread does not discuss infinity. It discusses the simple fact that no religion in the history of mankind has been infinite. In fact, nothing in the history of mankind has been infinite. So today's religions will not be infinite either, meaning that when you know such a thing, believing in their proposed gods is already pointless.

I was hoping for some of the more religious minded people to come and challenge that stance, but instead I'm looking at atheists discussing semantics

Isn't that what atheism is all about?

Religious people won't touch this one because they know deep down it is true. While they may believe that their god/s are infinite they realise that the human understanding of them is ever changing and that the religious views they hold true now WILL change.