Few Large Armies, or Many Small Armies?

[The Mad Monk]

I was brought to this question today in Science class when contemplating my next move in RTW:XGM with my Macedonian War Machine.

I have conquered all the Greek(City-States) Greece and Thermon, Cydonia, Rhodes and Hallicannassus(sp?) and I was planning an Attack on the Italian Peninsula as I've conquered the Gallic Tribes to the North.


So my Strategy involves:
2 legions (I know only the Romans had the Legions but I call my armies Legions)
I want to strike from the North and East at the same time then reunite for the conquest of Rome (the City) and chop the Romans in half finish them from there.


With the 1st legion then moving south (from Rome) and the 2nd legion moving North to finish Ariminum/Arretium (or at least their XGM Counterpart's).

Then a Questions popped up...

Is it better to attack with the 1st & 2nd Legions moving in unison to Rome through the Italian heel (Tarentum) or that I should use them separately and retain and element of surprise and blitzkreig where I will be able to acheive twice the penetration() and capture twice the cities but at the cost of reducing the supporting ability of the brother Legions?

[aznflea]

you should remain flexible in your approach. if you have trouble with the roman legions then you should definitely unite. send spies in beforehand to ascertain which settlements have the legionmakers and attack them first.

italy is a fantastic place to invade because its a peninsula. it makes ferrying troops to and fro much easier.

[Draugdur]

I'd say it depends on the Romans' current military situation. If they don't have much men on the field, but have financially the ability to spawn them in short time, then you should prevent them from doing so, i.e. conquer as much cities as soon as possible.
On the other hand, if they already have massive armies, you'd want to stick together so you don't get overwhelmed. However, you may also try to use the good ol' decoy strategy: invade the north with an army to make them shift their armies up north; then attack south and take as much cities as you can before they can react, while shipping your north army to the south (i don't know about XGM, but it usually takes at least two or three turns to cross the entire puninsula on foot, and only one via sea). After that, it's just the matter of keeping the conquered cities and winning a war of attrition.
Hope this helps

Oh, and one more thing: if things don't run the way you planned, do adapt. I ended up more than once with a completely different strategy

[fourganger]

Think like a boxer. Use your first army as a feint- send it in by itself, and wait for Rome's military to re-deploy to face the threat. Then send your second legion to strike at Rome's now relatively unprotected vital parts i.e. central Italian cities where most of their troops are recruited.

[The Mad Monk]

Yes BUT, can't they just decimate the original decoy force then move to where the Roman cities that I conquered, slide between the armies and attack the sparsely defended rear cities?

[fourganger]

Yes BUT, can't they just decimate the original decoy force then move to where the Roman cities that I conquered, slide between the armies and attack the sparsely defended rear cities?

Not if you pull it off right. At any rate, even if move against your conquered territory, just destroy all the buildings and leave. That'll take them a good couple of turn to recover from. If you hit their economy (by slaughtering the populace and destroying important ports) then they may have to disband some of the ir armies as they won't be able to pay upkeep. At any rate, they won't be able to train or re-train any more soldiers for a while.

[The Mad Monk]

Update-
I got a lucky break, Egypt (Ptolemaic) Conquered straight up to Pontus and cut the Seluicids empire in half and Allied with me!
I have conquered the first 1/3 of Asia Minor and Egypt has the 2nd 1/3 and is acting as a meatshield.


I have launched a campaign against Rome using a tri-legion assault through the boot of Italy.

The Plan was as follows

Legions consisted of 1 General, 2 Macedonian Heavy Cavalry, 4 Hypasists, 2 Archers, 2 Gastrophetes, 1 Onager

I would attack with 3 legions, Legion IV for Messana, Legion II for Tarentum, Legion IV for Croton.
Each would have an onager to assault the first city then they would move on (discarding the onagers) and besiege the next cities so getting 3 Cities Captured and 2 besieged the first turn.
The IV Legion sent for Messana would move up by boat and aid in the Capture of Rome.


Turn 1.
Grab the Boats and form into positions upon 4 ships-width from the predetermined landing positions.

Turn 2.
Hit the Beaches and assault and destroy 1 of the 3 cities.
Discard Onagers and move for the Next City.
Legion IV board Ship and move to aid the II Legion.

Turn 3.
Occupy the 2 Cities.
Enslave the population.
Move the IV Legion to the West coast of Italy after taking City Capua with the II Legion.
Legion IV takes Cannae with the Legion I. All move towards Rome.

Turn 4.
Beseige Rome.
Legion IV Set up to defend from the other 2 Roman Stacks.


==================================================


I got to turn 4. Then the Campaign went to shizah I got pwned by the Roman stacks. They wiped the floor with me! They all had 3 Silver chevron Princepes/Triarii. Needless to say I'm reverting to a save before the attack. What to do next time?

Should I just screw it and conquer Selucia?

[Entropy Judge]

They wiped the floor with me! They all had 3 Silver chevron Princepes/Triarii. Needless to say I'm reverting to a save before the attack. What to do next time?

No. Don't reload! So you've had a Cannae - let that be your rallying cry! Things are always darkest before the dawn, and they're not particularly dark for you in any case: the AI tends to fail at naval invasions, so they can't get at your core easily, while you can raid their cities all you want.

Practical advice for your second invasion: XP chevrons increase Melee attack and Defense Skill - therefore, missile units aren't affect by it, and are more useful in comparison to less experience troops. Second, use a combination of Phalangites, mobile troops, and Cavalry in addition to your archers - siege equipment will probably not be too useful in a set-piece battle like you're going to want. Make them attack you, preferably with your back to a wall so they can't flank your line. Mobility is the friend of armies everywhere - bog the Romans down on pikes, and deprive them of their mobility, and use yours to grind them down.

Disclaimer: I've not played XGM, so if Hoplites are better that Phalangites in this case, or if unit dynamics are otherwise significantly altered from Rome, feel free to disregard any above advice.

[darthbane7]

In regard to the disclaimer of entropy judge, in XGM, hoplites no longer have the phalanx ability, but have superior armor, attack and running speed to phalanx units.

[aznflea]

those romans are quite powerful.

try to get into a city and defend. i find defending a much easier battle than an open field battle

[Legio]

The key is- hoplites (NOT phalangites), archers, and two to three generals to charge the Romans in the back when they all mass-charge your hoplite line.
A few Theurophoroi are good on the flanks, and the AoR Italic Infantry is a nice novelty as well.

[Draugdur]

For pity's sake, why revert? You already fulfilled your objective! You said you got owned. So, what's the big deal about it? I can't imagine you lost ALL of your troops - and I mean really all, 100%. As long as you have some men left, you can always retrain and voila! you'll have your armies back within a turn. Two or three, if you have to send them all the way back to Macedonia to retrain. In my experience, AI won't be able to do anything useful within that time; maybe retake one or two cities, but even that is rare. After you retrain, repeat your attack, this time from the north. Your initial strategy with onagers is very good, although I personally prefer spies when taking multiple cities per turn; still, with stone walls onagers may be better. And if you're really lucky, you'll be able to take all of their cities before they react - and that'll be the end of it. I don't know how you stand financially, but with that soutern conquest, you should definitely be able to pull this one off. And if you managed to save your generals, even better. Btw, you may want to consider exterminating instead of enslavement, in order to get more cash. The general strategy in figthing factions with smaller territory but overpowering army and/or infrastructure, no matter which particular approach you take, is to take as much of their cities as possible in the first wave blitzkrieg, thus crippling their ability to recruit more men, while enhancing your own recruiting pool and treasury, and then either send the second and eventually third wave if needed to finish them off before they can react properly, or fight a war of attrition you shouldn't be able to lose. Getting the first wave killed is usually part of the plan

Disclaimer: All of this is applicable only if XGM isn't radically different from vanilla, as I haven't actually played the mod If there are any specific issues with zones of recruitment, cash flow, population growth etc., do enlighten me.

[htismaqe]

Don't revert to a previous save, you'll be cheating yourself out of some of the fun. Nobody wins EVERY battle.

Look at all of those cities in southern Italy that now belong to you, you've done significant damage. Fall back into those cities and defend them with what you have left.

[The Mad Monk]

I lost 95% of 3 Stacks, 2 7 star generals and my Faction leader (a 10*).
I lost my entire army and even If i retrained n army, I have no apt generals above 2*.

PS- I enslaved the population because if you exterminate it you can't raise any troops...

[Celsius]

a few half stacked armies should do the trick. Just be sure to send reinforcements


Celsius

[The Mad Monk]

a few half stacked armies should do the trick. Just be sure to send reinforcements


Celsius

If 3 full stacks got the beaten out of them how are 6 half stacks gonna do it?

[Celsius]

Thats what the 5 full stacks of reinforcements are for


Celsius

[Draugdur]

I lost 95% of 3 Stacks, 2 7 star generals and my Faction leader (a 10*).
I lost my entire army and even If i retrained n army, I have no apt generals above 2*.

PS- I enslaved the population because if you exterminate it you can't raise any troops...

OK. This is bad But, as others also pointed out, I still think you can pull this off without reloading.
You should use your remaining generals, obviously. Two stars may suck, but it is still better than no stars. Next thing...you're not the first to complain on awesomeness of roman army in XGM compared to others. Well, no problem, where skills don't help, numbers will do Comical appearance of Celsius' posts notwithstanding, he actually has a good point: your best choice is to simply overrun them with troops. I had the same problem with Romans when playing with Numidia (RTR), and the solution was fairly simple - spam troops, and forge a solid economy to back that up. Now, with all those cities you have in Greece, and those newly conquered, you should have such an economy. So go on a recruiting spree, and keep it up until you've wasted them Romans.
The main problem will be keeping your newly taken cities in Italy, which is why you'll need a new army ASAP. You may want to drop taxes in core cities, and send their garrison troops to front lines, at least temporarily. But this'll probably not be fast enough. So do anything to slow Roman recoquista down; blocking their path with forts might be a good idea. Also, make your first newly recruited troopslight/medium cavalry and archers. Such army will of course have no chance to stand its ground against Romans, but it'd be able to inflict some damage, and then withdraw when things get nasty. And with four cities less, Romans will probably not be able to retrain/replenish for long. (Btw, do keep in mind that you can usually withdraw. It saves lives ). With a little luck, you'll have lost 2 cities at most before your new armies are ready. In "real" battles, i.e. those that you want to win and not withdraw, follow Entropy's advice, I can't really add anything to that.
Hope this helps

[MABUS2012]

that blows my science teacher kicked me out off his class for whislting

anyways try to create a wall of forts to cut the romans off from the southern part of italia so u can rebuild ur army
the longer u last their u will be better off but u need some armies
i would take some crap units and attack a valuble city in northan italy and hopfully the stacks will go there and u can use that to help build ur garrison up or take another city
i tried to take italy from the north and south with macdon once it worked but i spent to much money on it and i hade to focus all my efforts on it cause for some reason the romans can bring more stacks full of vets than anyone GL dont fight unless u got alot of resevers

ps kill them dirt egyption with chirots actin like they the $#!%

[The Mad Monk]

that blows my science teacher kicked me out off his class for whislting

Yeah! My Science teacher's a freaky Indian Teacher and we're all afraid to piss her off. (As a friend o' mine so aptly put it: "She got 60 Million gods with 15 arms, and their ready to beat the living (%$#&) of you")

I got in trouble for Sleeping and got 4 day's of ISS for 'debating' about Creationism!

anyways try to create a wall of forts to cut the romans off from the southern part of italia so u can rebuild ur army
the longer u last their u will be better off but u need some armies
i would take some crap units and attack a valuble city in northan italy and hopfully the stacks will go there and u can use that to help build ur garrison up or take another city
i tried to take italy from the north and south with macdon once it worked but i spent to much money on it and i hade to focus all my efforts on it cause for some reason the romans can bring more stacks full of vets than anyone GL dont fight unless u got alot of resevers

I'll Try that! I have seem a lot of things about that and I've only used it once or twice in the Mountain passes of the Alps and Caucuses with phalanx troops to be unbeatable in defense.

Here I go...