Do you have the right to decide religious issues for your child?

[Rich86]

Listening to a podcast on my mammoth walk home from work today I heard a case about two parents who basically let their child die because of their religion. It was against their religion to have a blood transfusion so their poor child had to die.

This is what I am wondering....

Is it right that a child is basically left to die because of the beliefs of it's parents? That child never made a decision to be part of that religion - it was just unlucky enough to be born with parents who are part of that religion. Not only does the child have no say in which set of religious beliefs are forced upon it, it has no say wether or not it lives or dies based upon these beliefs.

[Astaroth]

No, ethically and morally the parents do of course not have the right to force their beliefs on their children, especially if it results in such horrible incidents. However, judically they are allowed to do it and that will not change in the foreseeable future, I'm afraid.

[The Dude]

This is something that -must- change. Parental religious authority is one of the worst relics of medieval times that still exists in the 21st century.

If I had any sort of judicial power at all I would see this fall under child abuse and infringement of human rights.

[bthizle1]

If I had any sort of judicial power at all I would see this fall under child abuse and infringement of human rights.

Yep, and that's why people like you and I (and anyone else who agrees for that matter) have never and will never obtain judicial power.

[Gogf]

This is something that -must- change. Parental religious authority is one of the worst relics of medieval times that still exists in the 21st century.

If I had any sort of judicial power at all I would see this fall under child abuse and infringement of human rights.

That's absurd. What right do you have to teach your children that god does not exist? What right do you have to teach your children that eating meat is okay? What right do you have to teach your children any of your beliefs?

At some point we must grant some authority to parents to pass on their values to their children as has been done for tens of thousands of years. You may disagree with those values or think that they are teaching something incorrect - and you may very well be right - but to classify it as child abuse goes beyond the pale.

[The Dude]

That's absurd. What right do you have to teach your children that god does not exist? What right do you have to teach your children that eating meat is okay? What right do you have to teach your children any of your beliefs?

At some point we must grant some authority to parents to pass on their values to their children as has been done for tens of thousands of years. You may disagree with those values or think that they are teaching something incorrect - and you may very well be right - but to classify it as child abuse goes beyond the pale.

Here's my logic:

Why cheat? Why force your religion upon your child when he can't fight back? When he's at his youngest and most vulnerable. Why then? If your religion has enough merit and is indeed the truth you must trust your children to choose for it at a responsible age where they can make an informed decision.

If your belief is indeed as correct as you believe it to be, there is no need for cheating.

[Gogf]

Here's my logic:

Why cheat? Why force your religion upon your child when he can't fight back? When he's at his youngest and most vulnerable. Why then? If your religion has enough merit and is indeed the truth you must trust your children to choose for it at a responsible age where they can make an informed decision.

If your belief is indeed as correct as you believe it to be, there is no need for cheating.

Nobody is "cheating" - parents are educating. Why teach children about math before they can coherently understand its validity? Surely you learned that two plus two was four without any justification and accepted it uncritically as fact. I didn't learn about the field axioms until tenth grade, and even now I would wager that very few people here could explain to me why 2+2=4.

People are bound to teach their beliefs to their children. I understand that you don't want children to be indoctrinated with religion. I can sympathize with that. I'm an atheist too, and I think it's tragic that people are taught to accept things as true from a young age when I think they very clearly are not. But we can't cherry-pick beliefs like that. Children are taught all sorts of things by their parents (including, might I add, morality, which is very often strongly associated with religion), and to say that parents are not allowed to teach something to their children, despite their firm belief that it is true, is ridiculous.

[Mathias]

No, ethically and morally the parents do of course not have the right to force their beliefs on their children, especially if it results in such horrible incidents. However, judically they are allowed to do it and that will not change in the foreseeable future, I'm afraid.

Is there really a country that allows parents to let their children die instead of giving them a blood transfusion if they belong to Jehova's vitnesses?

[Rich86]

However, judically they are allowed to do it and that will not change in the foreseeable future, I'm afraid.

This is what bugs me. The child is forced to die for someone else's belief and apparently this is ok? Or at least, in the eyes of the law there is no problem with this.

[Pontifex Maximus]

They are a big influence, and I would say 85% of the time the child ends up following in his/her parent's footsteps in carrying on the "family" religious tradition. I myself do not but my siblings do. While it is the most common outcome, it is not necessarily predetermined to be so.

I remember hearing about that case, apparently some deranged preacher was convinced Jesus would save the kid. Of course when he didn't they just interpreted it as God's will as opposed to finally realizing that God doesn't exist.

[Lord Rahl]

They are a big influence, and I would say 85% of the time the child ends up following in his/her parent's footsteps in carrying on the "family" religious tradition. I myself do not but my siblings do. While it is the most common outcome, it is not necessarily predetermined to be so.

I remember hearing about that case, apparently some deranged preacher was convinced Jesus would save the kid. Of course when he didn't they just interpreted it as God's will as opposed to finally realizing that God doesn't exist.

Exactly. In general a child will grow up to behave similarly like their parents or whoever else they respect, so religion is included in that. For example, for myself, I grew up in a Methodist household (I'm named after the freakin' founder!) and not surprisingly grew up believing in the same religious ideas as my parents. About a year ago that changed, however, and right now I'd consider myself (I really don't know for sure) a diest (oldschool!). But do parents have the right to decide the religious ideas for their children? Yes, they do. If that is, and probably is, the case then the parents believe that teaching their kids about their chosen religion is as essential as teaching them all other ideas to help the children become good members of society. When the kid leaves their parents' house then they can believe whatever the hell they want.

[Roman Knight]

What age does a child able to choose his religion, then? How is an 18 year old any more conscious than a 12 year old? The only difference is experience, and although experience works better overall, it can be substituted with education. Basically what I'm getting at with my badly structured post is that parents might do well (not should, that's too objective) to educate their child on each religion.

In fact (*tangential comment alert*), it would be an interesting experiment to take 30 or so children, let them play around in a controlled environment until they're 5, at which point you educate all of them seperately in a different order about every religion in the world, and see what happens. Whilst, as a skeptic, I trust not the validity of an experiment like that, it would be interesting nonetheless.

[Lord Rahl]

The intellectual abilities of an 18 year old compared to a 12 year old are huge. While a 12 year old might still be smart, their brains are always in overdrive and they can't concentrate on one thing for more than 20 minutes. An 18 year old is much more mature and can use their intellect to concentrate on one thing for much longer. There is a reason why 18 is a sort of magic age in law. I remember when I was 12. All I cared about was playing with my action figures and LEGOS. All that being said, I think a child could choose their religion at any point, but the sincerity and validity of the claim becomes difficult the younger they are.

While I don't think that religion should be forced on a child (of any age), I don't think that the parents are wrong for teaching their kids about their own. As long as the child is still inside of the house then the parents pretty much can do whatever they want (within the bounds of law). Like myself, I don't live with my parents anymore and don't believe what they do. When I visit them I still go to church with them. Church is still interesting. I like theology.

[Roman Knight]

But maybe if you'd been taught the right stuff you could make an informed decision. And even so, relative to the amount there is to know that we don't, the gap between a 12 year old and an 18 year old is relatively small. And what's to say even the parents can make an informed decision?

[basics]

" I remember hearing about that case, apparently some deranged preacher was convinced Jesus would save the kid. Of course when he didn't they just interpreted it as God's will as opposed to finally realizing that God doesn't exist."

Pontifex,

You can affirm that the preacher was deranged, can you? Of course God's will is important, moreso than deliberating that He doesn't exist, because the former happens to be the difference between life and death, them in good health and them not.

But, looking at the thing from the other's side, what faith they have was put into believing that God would heal their child and were they regenerate as parents there was every likelihood that God, had His will been different, certainly would have.

Then it is fair to say that although they have lost their loved one to this world, that child is with God even now, never needing to worry about illness of any sort. If they are born again their sadness is evermore likely to be surmounted by the joy of knowing these things. Only those that don't know God would want to make this worse than it is.

[The Dude]

Then it is fair to say that although they have lost their loved one to this world, that child is with God even now, never needing to worry about illness of any sort. If they are born again their sadness is evermore likely to be surmounted by the joy of knowing these things. Only those that don't know God would want to make this worse than it is.

Worse than it is? Their kid is dead. If that's a tragedy they can overcome simply by telling themselves some ing fairytale they didn't deserve to have kids to begin with.

[Mathais]

That is just sad to me a child no matter how old they are should choose what or weather they want to be of a faith. If I was the parents and had to choose I would have shown my love for my child and done anything to save his life and not let my religion tell me other wise. Though when it comes to growing up in a religious house hold I still would say give it a try just to give them a bite of guide in there life so they actually have somthing that give them direction in life.

[Rich86]

If I had any sort of judicial power at all I would see this fall under child abuse and infringement of human rights.

Fully agreed! Imagine you had been in a car accident and your own father came up to the doctor and said "Sorry but I had a religious conversion last night and I'd like for you to let my son die..."

You are old enough to say; "Hey Dad get lost! Heal me doctors - ignore him!" the child isn't.

[MaximiIian]

Parents generally have the right to raise their child however they wish. But I would say that those rights stop where the child's rights to freedom of thought and conscience begin.

[C-Rob]

I hope those parents ironically burn in hell.

Though as a catholic, I was baptized at my parent's request, but at 16 I was able to decide if I wanted to continue to be part of hte church or not.