Need your opinion on Attrition trait system: How often you fight the battle without using general?

[Suppanut]

While I reply thread in "Threat from the East" have remind me one thing RTW lack from start...The problem cause by logistic and exhaustion from fighting too often or stay in enemyland for too long which all of these should cause logistic problem to the army and lack of supply.

I could imitate logistic supply and war exhaustion via traits but this could only apply to general character only cannot do to non-character commander and AI will can't handle it but I could made this trait given only to player faction only or made it affect AI faction far less severe. Such a handicap but will made player need to plan everything carefully especially when you invade enemy land or across the sea.

As this would effect game play a lot or will not at all so I must ask forumer first about how often you fight with army that not lead by general. I dare to ask this because XGM unit upkeep is very high so I don't think I would find spam stack done by player.

If this idea have good reception then I will start formulate it for XC and later for PMP.

[Zarax]

IMHO it should be done the other way: armies inside friendly territories should get a bonus (especially to movement points) so defenders could rally their armies quicker.

[Athenogoras]

The Fourth Age mod has implemented similar system. They have made it so it only affects human player. Human General-lead armies gets restricted movement, restricted morale, lower command, smaller chance of soldiers recovering and are easier to bribe(not all at once, but gradually). It happens when you are inside enemy territory or even on your own territory moving around a lot.(morale and command also affects autocalc)

Link to their forum
http://www.thefourthage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3285

Edit: It is a traitbased system

[Stilgar CG]

... Human General-lead armies gets restricted movement, restricted morale, lower command, smaller chance of soldiers recovering and are easier to bribe(not all at once, but gradually). It happens when you are inside enemy territory or even on your own territory moving around a lot.(morale and command also affects autocalc)

Link to their forum
http://www.thefourthage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3285

Edit: It is a traitbased system

Edit: Suppanut, I think this attrition&logistic handicap is overall a good idea.

This is a very interesting approach indeed, Athenogoras. The human player should be hold back by a number of factors, which are individually unable to affect the game decisively, but together make the mission of human player more difficult.

[Scutarii]

I like the idea, especially if its anything like EB's system. Really makes you think about when to invade...

[Legio]

Oh , I picked the wrong choice.
I picked never, except in defending form a siege. Generals are always used by me.

[LucretiusTC]

If you play the hard campaign and the hard battles with all those AI bonuses on, there are sometimes situations when you have to deal with 3 enemy armies in a row without any retraining or significant reinforcements. In those cases (e.g. Romans vs. Gauls, or Greeks vs. Scythians) the only way to survive with your army is usually to favour the bridge battles. After those kind of battles there is no need for any extra burdens for those fighting units.

Here is something about Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/syl...R3FT5SWB4URL81
"The book shows how Alexander's intimate knowledge and understanding of terrain, geography, weather, seasons, sources of provisions and accessibility of routes enabled him to expertly solve the various logistical challenges thus ensuring his decisive victories. The immensity of the calculations that he had to make, the numerous permutations that had to be taken into account with respect to factors such as speed of troop movement, water and food requirements for people and animals as well as the weapons and ammunition shows really how capable Alexander and his staff were."

The Logistics of the Roman Army at War:
http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=210&pid=30410
"Each chapter is devoted to a different aspect of logistics: supply needs and rations; packs, trains and military servants; foraging and requisition; supply lines; sources of supply; administration; and the impact of logistics on Roman warfare. As a whole the book traces the development of the Roman logistics into a highly sophisticated supply system - a vital element in the success of Roman arms."

If we want to give some kind of role for the logistics, I think there should be more factors than just restrictions. Surely the best combination would be a good commander who is specialized for the military logistics and operates in friendly and/or rich regions. Naturally the worst combination would be a poor commander who has more troubles than average general to supply his units and who has to fight in the hostile and difficult regions. But I am not an expert with those technical details, and at the H/H level casualties can be hard enough without any further problems.

Luc.

[CaesarVincens]

I don't think an attrition/logistics system should be included in XGM. While it was (is) certainly part of warfare, as you said, it isn't represented in RTW, and can't be modelled well enough for me.

So, I suppose I'll just say it now: I don't plan on including a logisistics/attrition system in XC anytime soon.

[Suppanut]

I don't think an attrition/logistics system should be included in XGM. While it was (is) certainly part of warfare, as you said, it isn't represented in RTW, and can't be modelled well enough for me.

So, I suppose I'll just say it now: I don't plan on including a logisistics/attrition system in XC anytime soon.

Caesar: Maybe I should released independent module based on normal XGM first and see the players reception then we would think again about include it in XC and PMP. Is it alright?

[Suppanut]

I have plan for some traits to ease or slow down attrition/logistic effect like "logistic skill", "BarbarianHuntingSkill", "GoodDisciplinarian", "Asture", skill about speaking, etc while some vice would made the matter worse like "ApicanRomanVice", "Aesthethic", etc as well as all other condition that I could made it possible.

[CaesarVincens]

That would be fine. I'm not trying to stop you from creating this, after all, your previous work has been outstanding, but I am going to take a wait and see approach on this one.

[Stilgar CG]

Suppanut, perhaps, in the first instance the traits and ancilaries list can be scanned for anything and anybody what/who gives unrealistic or too high anti-attrition&pro-logistic boosts. I mean, surgeons that improve the chance of recovery for soldiers (if benfits apply to general alone, that's fine), or anything/anybody that give extra movement points etc. In principle, the supply of stars by ancilaries should be very limited: stars should be gained in battle.

[Zarax]

Just make it slower than EB's.
Hannibal roamed for 17 years in hostile territory and he still was logistically fine...

[Dom9127]

Good idea, this was en element of The Fourth Age which I really liked. As long as it is reasonable I fully support this idea.

[Roman Warlord]

I can't vote yet but I rarley fight without a general.

[Spartan198]

Before XGM, very rarely.

Now, with recruitable generals, I have a general leading every army I build.

[Webba]

I think both CV and LucretiusTC make excellent points. I don't think an attrition traits system would necessarily represent attrition any better than it already is with the different cultures and barracks and so on. I'd rather see that system taken to a greater extent (like it is in XC) that using traits to represent it. If it was done then, like others have said, it should encompass both positive and negative effects IMHO.

[aznflea]

pretty much everytime if they survive battles.

[atraps]

I use my generals in battle always, including heavy combat where there is a chance he will be killed. My plan is simple, test my generals (heavily) and whoever survives is usually ultra tough (brutally scarred traits and so on).

As for this new system, It sounds like a good idea, but it might become tedious after awhile, especially late in game where you have lots to take care of.

[TheSavage]

You should always be using generals... Not using a general is a bigger disadvantage than having poor morale due to low supplies.

SS for M2TW has a pretty good supply system. As the general spends more time in enemy territory, his supplies start getting lower. When you get down to 75% supplies (after 2 turn) I think it's -1 morale, once you get down to 25% supplies or no supplies then it's a major morale hit. Personally, I think it's a little fast (IMO it should be 3-4 turns for each 25% reduction in supplies), but it does force you to think about logistics. You can just apply this to the player's characters and not the AI characters.

I don't think there's an easy way to do attrition... that would be sweet though.