being objective...

[dogukan]

I start this thread to see what everybody thinks about this "war on terror" started by the USA.
First of all I have to say that the fight between radicals Muslim "terrorists" and westerns led by oil companies isN't the biggest issue on earth. We have much more serious issues than fighting each other such as global warming, the economical crysis, over-population.......vs vs vs

But since talking about wars makes people more interested, and wakes up the nationalism in it...these issues look a lot more important.

Now I'm not a believer on any religion. I do not support the imperialstic actions of some western states around the world nor the hatred which goes around the Islamic world. It is true, west is a lot more advaned than these people....but if the more people stereotypes and Muslims, and tries to group them as one the more angry I get. I'm sure yoU'd be angry if you heard things like "do you marry 4 women, do you go to school with camels, why don't you use Arabic alphabet, you are warmongeres, you opress people, you can't drink alcohol.......etc

Now to the read point. These organisations which fights the western powers. People has to realise that there are a lot of different factions. And in these there are people with very very different backgrounds. There are even people who graduates from very good universities, or people who didn't even see a proper car before.
These people have their ideals and they fight for it. When I read about people's comments, I see people calling them "cowards" or "bad guys".
1.Your terrorist might be someone elses freedom fighter, do not look at the world from only your view. Or people who keeps calling a group of people as "THE ENEMY" will rule over you and take your rights away.(1984-George Orwell put this with different view)
2- I doubt they're cowards. These people are brave enough to jump into war without proper tranining, without being PAID to fight for what they think is right. They are the ones who are brave enough to blow themselves up. Good o bad, tahts not the point. Thats what those people are told. The reason they use IED so much is that because they doN't have a death star up in the space.
Just because they're not from the white race, or western civilazation doesN't mean they're stupid. They just was not lucky enough.


one more thing.....Iraq has many different insurgents groups. There are the backwarded types but there are also the ones which fight for freedom. Now you can't expect them to NOT help each others. What I expect is just more respect to these people. And not forgetting that this is war....I mean no disrepsect to invading soldiers, they are also just doing their jobs.
Who is to be accused? People who drive this people to do these......


and as a side request to people who doN't read much/people who have never been to about/to ME:
Middle Eastern is not a race or religion. There are many people here, many cultures here and many religions here. There are very western(or let's call it modern) people and very backwards people. Depends on country and then the region......so do not go around with assumptions and what you seeon TVs in your head.


one more PS: Do not believe everything you read about Islam...even the Muslims doN't know it properly since the langauge in Quran is very poetic. People get different things from it. But basically it tells you to do good things.

[Sven788]

I agree with the points about terrorists that they are not cowards etc, they are just crazy by religion.

I agree with that people should be more objective.

I disagree with that you state that some Western states are imperialistic, I just don't see the world like that.
And I strongly disagree with that the West fight wars for oil companies.

I support the war on terror.

[Каие]

There is no such thing as the 'War on terror'.

I disagree with that you state that some Western states are imperialistic

I'm sorry, but...yes we are.

[Sven788]

There is no such thing as the 'War on terror'.



I'm sorry, but...yes we are.

You see it as that, I don't!
Maybe in 20 years you will thank the USA that they attacked Iraq and Afghanistan.

I support the wars of the West.

[dogukan]

You see it as that, I don't!
Maybe in 20 years you will thank the USA that they attacked Iraq and Afghanistan.

I support the wars of the West.

I only wish that one day you live in the same situation with the poor people in Iraq or Afghanistan.....there is no way anyone will thank USA after 20 years for attacking Iraq and Afganistan. As it only created more terrorists and caused more destruction.
You actually belvie taht by fighting them there you stop them? As if they were going to walk through Afghanistan and Iraq with t-shirts "terrorist" wrriten on it.

[Каие]

You see it as that, I don't!

Opinion and point of view is irrelevant in definition. Imperialism is the belief one is entitled to conquer and invade.

I support the wars of the West.

Which one would that be? :hmmm:
Afghanistan is NATO and no one is pulling their weight except 4 nations, the other is Iraq where only 2 nations reside.

The war on terror if you insist it exists, is not a western war. The war on terror has been waged for decades long before the US bothered to join, they have a habit of joining wars late.

[Sven788]

Opinion and point of view is irrelevant in definition. Imperialism is the belief one is entitled to conquer and invade.

It depends on your view how you and where you place that definition, just give up you will never ever convince me to betray my own people and support the enemy.

Which one would that be? :hmmm:
Afghanistan is NATO and no one is pulling their weight except 4 nations, the other is Iraq where only 2 nations reside.

The war on terror if you insist it exists, is not a western war. The war on terror has been waged for decades long before the US bothered to join, they have a habit of joining wars late.

I just support the Western wars, it's the right thing to do in my opinion.
If you like my opinion or not I don't care.
Out of experience I know that this topic is pointless to discuss.

I only wish that one day you live in the same situation with the poor people in Iraq or Afghanistan.....there is no way anyone will thank USA after 20 years for attacking Iraq and Afganistan. As it only created more terrorists and caused more destruction.
You actually belvie taht by fighting them there you stop them? As if they were going to walk through Afghanistan and Iraq with t-shirts "terrorist" wrriten on it.

I KNOW WHY they do it!
However that doesn't give them the right to be like that.
How can you know? Can you see the future?
They use a new policy it's working.
I ain't saying that but you can win them for them, they are brainwashed by propaganda some you can still win over to the good side.

[Dr. Croccer]

I disagree with that you state that some Western states are imperialistic, I just don't see the world like that.

...?

[Sven788]

...?

What's so difficult?
He sees the West as imperialistic, how they handle the world and start wars. I don't, I see it as the right thing.

[Ciabhán]

What's so difficult?
He sees the West as imperialistic, how they handle the world and start wars. I don't, I see it as the right thing.

Don't worry as far as I can see Croccer has Westerneuroguilt.

[Dr. Croccer]

What's so difficult?
He sees the West as imperialistic, how they handle the world and start wars. I don't, I see it as the right thing.

He doesn't view the entire West as imperialistic, he views some actions of some of the Western countries as imperialistic, which is debatable. The French control of some African countries through ''economic support'' and ''negritude'' is blatant imperialism. The Iraq War is due to Saddam's interests colliding with American ones, attacking their OPEC buddies is not a good thing. Attacking Iran is ay-okay, they rejected the US, USSR and Israel after they overthrew the US-backed Shah anyway. Iraq was a nice bufferzone in the Middle East in the Cold War and was a relic back then. Etc, etc.

Neo-imperialism isn't an opinion, it does exist and it did and does cause problems in Africa, the Far East and the Middle East.

Don't worry as far as I can see Croccer has Westerneuroguilt.

I have a sense of history and politics, that's what. Oh and no, I don't feel sorry for the Africans, Middle Easterners, etc but I feel a need to point out the obvious and keep everything within perspective by inducing a bit of knowledge in threads like this, in the hopes of maybe enlightening someone or at least keeping the thread from derailing into a spamfest. It seems your powers of observation concerning my ''westerneuroguilt'' are on the same level as an alcoholic Stevie Wonder, not like that wasn't obvious enough, if you can apparantly diagnose me with some sort of mental disorder on the basis of a quote and a ing question mark.

[Ciabhán]

I have a sense of history and politics, that's what. Oh and no, I don't feel sorry for the Africans, Middle Easterners, etc but I feel a need to point out the obvious and keep everything within perspective by inducing a bit of knowledge in threads like this, in the hopes of maybe enlightening someone or at least keeping the thread from derailing into a spamfest. It seems your powers of observation concerning my ''westerneuroguilt'' are on the same level as an alcoholic Stevie Wonder, not like that wasn't obvious enough, if you can apparantly diagnose me with some sort of mental disorder on the basis of a quote and a ing question mark.

Actually it seems in many threads that your posts have been less historical facts and more complaints about how various countries and governments handle things.

[Dr. Croccer]

Actually it seems in many threads that your posts have been less historical facts and more complaints about how various countries and governments handle things.

Uh huh. Such as?

[George W. Bush]

There is such a thing as the War on Terror. Currently, U.S. forces are still trying to locate Osama Bin Laden, the man responsible for the World Trade Center disaster of 9/11. It's imperative that he is brought to justice for his misdeeds. If no more effort is made to locate him, the forces of terrorism will likely strike back at America, and this will just make matters worse. The War on Terror is not over, if you want to know what I think, I think it's only half-way over at least, three-quarters over at most.

[Manoflooks]

The war on terror is the most retarded thing in the world. But the US did it; Im not surprised.
First they declare war on chemicals.
Then they declare was on an adjective.

Idiots. The US, i mean.

[C-Rob]

The war on terror is the most retarded thing in the world. But the US did it; Im not surprised.
First they declare war on chemicals.
Then they declare was on an adjective.

Idiots. The US, i mean.

Dont' forget the war on actions of people that go against laws written by the governing body and then are "proven" guilty.

But anyway, yes,, they are human and are brave and are seeking what they think is right, but they are killing who I know, and not killing the men who are REALLY responsible. If they had killed Bush, then they would be protecting themselves. But killing JOn Doe the GI, how does that do anything?

[Platon]

Well.. the iraqis have every right to take up arms against the aggressive imperialist occupants. And they have every right to kill all those collaborators also. The western world in general - and specifically the US - are the greatest terror organisations and terrorist supporters in the world.
The american people voted for Bush... twice... AND supported (75-90% according to the polls back then) the attack on Iraq - They have the responsibility also!!!

If there only was a way to support the guerillas in Iraq, to buy modern military equipment, medics and other supplies (a bank account number one could contribute... like for the Unicef or the Red cross..)

Now I think those iraqi fighters and the mujahediins, are a bit pathetic and way out of line with their islamic rhethorics and their "Allah Akhbars".. I prefer guys like Che, Ho Chi Minh and Hugo... but..
like they say: the enemy of my enemy...


Is that objective enough dog?

[seal]

I do not support the imperialstic actions of some western states around the world nor the hatred which goes around the Islamic world.

Imperialism suggests the annexation of territory. Clearly that isn't the case with the "War on Terror." However, every country has the sovereign right to trade or not to trade, sign a treaty on not sign, and go to war or not go to war. Blind hatred is an unfortunate biproduct of any conflict that irrational people use to justify their nation's actions.

1.Your terrorist might be someone elses freedom fighter, do not look at the world from only your view. Or people who keeps calling a group of people as "THE ENEMY" will rule over you and take your rights away.(1984-George Orwell put this with different view)

I completely concur with that concept of terrorist/freedom-fighter. However, an important psychological aspect of war is the use of blanket terms to dehumanize enemy combatants. In theory, a soldier can emotionally deal with killing an "enemy," but it is more difficult to kill John Smith, father of three, loves to watch the soccer game on Saturdays. Hence, the blanket terms used by soldiers. Keep in mind that this defense mechanism comes from within the ranks, as opposed to it being developed by command structures.

2- I doubt they're cowards. These people are brave enough to jump into war without proper tranining, without being PAID to fight for what they think is right. They are the ones who are brave enough to blow themselves up. Good o bad, tahts not the point. Thats what those people are told. The reason they use IED so much is that because they doN't have a death star up in the space.

Anybody who believes they are cowards are individuals who have never been there. Even if I disagree with the reasons that they are willing to kill themselves, it doesn't take away from the bravery that's inherent in the action. Typically though, sucide bombers are paid in a way. Often they are recruited from poorer areas with promises that their families will be taken care of after the deed. Unfortunately, that creates a strategic necessity to go after the families of suicide bombers, in order to eliminate that recruitment tool being effectively used in the future. But once you do that, there is certainly going to be an air of hostility.

Personally, I never had anything against uniformed enemy combattants. They just do what any soldier does. In my experience, the worst atrocities were commited by civilians who decided to play GI Joe for the weekend.

[KING OF TWC!]

what a rip off of my SGT

[Каие]

huh?