the tibetan issue

[oskarhasaids]

seriously, im so sick of all these mislead and bandwagon jumping folks shouting ''free tibet!'' when they dont know anything about the issue at all.

most western media shows one sided news about how brutal china is because they want to demonize and portray china as the enemy because at the moment they're the only country as far as im concerned challenging the united states with another political ideology and also as a world superpower. for example in the western hemisphere you will most likely never hear about angry native hawaiians protesting the illegal occupation of their country on the news or even the puerto rican occupation

first things first, most people dont acknowledge that tibet was a theocratic/absolute monarch regime. doesn't that go against everything that the US stands for? didn't the US fight a civil war to abolish slavery 150 years ago? aren't they currently fighting theocracy in afghanistan?. tibet was probably as backwards as ancient egypt would be today. tibet was a living hell under the 14th dalai lama where 95% of the nation worked for him as either serfs or slaves. torturing was very common

secondly, tibet has almost always throughout history been a part of china. read more about it here. http://www.rangzen.com/history/views.htm

thirdly, i've been hearing alot from pro-tibetans about how china is committing a genocide against tibet, even one guy claimed that chinas dream is that no tibetans exist. this claim is so insanely stupid that not even words can express it. if china didn't want tibetans to exist then why doesn't the ''one child rule'' apply to tibetans? why was the average life span of tibetans in 1951 35 years old compared to 65 years old today? why was the infant mortality rate 450 infant deaths per 1000 in 1951 but 35 infant deaths per 1000 today? why has the tibetan population increased from 1.2 million in 1951 to 2.6 million in 2000? if this is supposed to be the genocide they're talking about then god bless it.

fourthly, i was arguing with a pro-tibetan who claimed that ''tibet has the right to be independent from china because they are ethnically different''. i mean, why would anyone even think like that? there are 56 different ethnic groups in china, should china be divided into 56 parts so that each ethnic group can live for themselves? should the united states be divided into 4 parts? one for native americans, one for blacks, one for asians and one for the whites?

oh and concerning the 2008 olympic riots, most of the tibetans rioting were young people who had absolutely no idea how destructive and genocidal tibet actually was, if they did im sure as hell they'd appreciate their living conditions.

contrary to what you might be thinking right now looking at my user bar, no, i dont support the chinese communist party. i think they're absolutely insane but i believe that tibet is alot better off with china.

anyways yeah, thanks for reading. im open to all arguments and all reasonings why tibet should be free.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Yay, another person coming to enlighten us. You'll be in great company with our Chinese members. (Particularly the strongly nationalist ones)

You, on several occasions, attribute better living conditions in Tibet to the People's Republic of China while ignoring the medical advances that take place over 50 years.

The West Bank and Gaza Strip have better infant mortality rates than Tibet and China. Perhaps war would help the mortality rate?

[sephodwyrm]

while ignoring the medical advances that take place over 50 years..

Ahh...free countries in Africa must have been left out, then.

[George W. Bush]

I wholeheartedly support both a free Tibet, a free Xinjiang, a free Outer Mongolia (ceded to Mongolia), and a free Manchuria.

Anything that could possibly make China less of a (quite capable at that) threat to world peace, I support.

[Chukada1]

I wholeheartedly support both a free Tibet, a free Xinjiang, a free Outer Mongolia (ceded to Mongolia), and a free Manchuria.

Anything that could possibly make China less of a (quite capable at that) threat to world peace, I support.

An insecure, instable, and poor China is more of a threat to world peace, then a secure, safe and rich China.

Or did you fail your class of common sense?

[Babur]

An insecure, instable, and poor China is more of a threat to world peace, then a secure, safe and rich China.

Or did you fail your class of common sense?

Or is it you that lacks common sense?

People should realize that China is learning from the British example of North Ireland.

That's nothing to be proud of.

good OP
i always think it's funny how most members of 'free tibet; campaigns are usually western, well off, wannabe hippy types

Well I am not a hippy type lol

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

He's always in character...

AKA making fun of good old Dubyah.

[Random Emperor]

First and fourth were great arguements.
Second and third were not so good

[Exarch]

good OP
i always think it's funny how most members of 'free tibet; campaigns are usually western, well off, wannabe hippy types

[Naturalist]

I don't know enough to comment on Tibet but you gotta admit the Chinese actions towards people native to Uighuristan have been less than noble...imo. Of course I'm a central asia romantic

[Exarch]

I don't know enough to comment on Tibet but you gotta admit the Chinese actions towards people native to Uighuristan have been less than noble...imo. Of course I'm a central asia romantic

how've they been less than noble?
in whut way?

[Tajir]

The biggest problem I have with Tibet is that they ask for too much land for such few people. The Tibet autonomous region has the second-lowest population in China yet its the second-largest region in the country. Good luck getting away with that.

And when you compare population ratio, they have 1/4th the chances of getting independence as native Americans do.

Its a joke.

[RollingWave]

there's the realpolitik aspect and the other aspects....

from the realpolitk point of view, both side is spewing historical lies to thinnly vail their obvious interests. Tibet was a monarchy? so what? how long ago was that? it was a time when womens AND blacks weren't allow to vote in the US. (or in the women's case, anywhere, so there was technically no such thing as a democracy around.) . Tibet is a indisbutable part of China? huh? similar logic applied then not only Mongolia, but Korea / Vietnam and the okinawa isles are all part of China too. there were only two dynasty that had semi controll of the area, and neither of them were really "Chinese" by the standards of Chinese nationalist. and in both cases the control was at best a tributory that was a nominal subject.

in the end all of those are rhetorical garbage, the only thing that really matter right now is that China has control of the place. they'll probably come to some sort of semi-compremise with the Dahlai Lama or his eventual successors on higher autonomy and such. but that's about it. barring a complete collaspse of the PRC administration (which would be a disastor beyond comprehension in the current world situation) there is as much of a chance of Tibet to be a soverign state as the PRC invading Korea / Okinawa / Vietnam to reclaim their rightful lands.

[Yuiis]

How about the argument of democracy? No one speaks about democracy when all these independence issues come out. Let the tibetan people decide, they are the ones that really know and should bear with what is good for their nation or not.

Now, if not even the majority of the so-called western democracies are democratic enough to let nations inside their territorries decide, I don't think China will be an exception either.

[oskarhasaids]

How about the argument of democracy? No one speaks about democracy when all these independence issues come out. Let the tibetan people decide, they are the ones that really know and should bear with what is good for their nation or not.

absolutely not. is theocracy and slavery somehow justified because the majority wants it? absolutely not. most tibetans are pissed off because the chinese are treating them horribly without acknowledging that a free tibet would treat them even worse.

[Delvecchio1975]

a free tibet would treat them even worse.

crystal ball? how on earth could you know?

[Plan C]

absolutely not. is theocracy and slavery somehow justified because the majority wants it? absolutely not.

Somehow I doubt that majority would pick slavery (not so sure on theocracy) given choice. And even if they do, what is your prerogative to deny them that?

most tibetans are pissed off because the chinese are treating them horribly without acknowledging that a free tibet would treat them even worse.

How on earth have you come up with that? Why would it treat them even worse? Free Tibet is not about re-introducing slavery and old ways to the letter, don't be so one-sided, it's about what it says on the tin - free Tibet. Oh, didn't even know that the Chinese treat the Tibetans horribly, thanks for making this clear.

EDIT: goddamn delvecchio, beat me to it by a second!!

[Bokks]

Tibet was a monarchy? so what? how long ago was that? it was a time when womens AND blacks weren't allow to vote in the US.

Well, to be fair it was a monarchy during that time when women and black Americans couldn't vote, yes, but by the time that it was... how shall we say... annexed by China it was after universal suffrage existed in the US. Yes, it was before the Civil Rights movements, but it was well after the black population got the vote, which was in the late 1860's, and women got the vote in 1920. By 1920... or was it '21?

Anyway, while the OP's points are well made, I fail to hear the American citizens clamoring that their American state is occupied by American forces. As for Puerto Rico, I haven't personally been there myself but while they may not want to be a state they do (as a whole) like to be a part of the USA. I'm not denying that the majority of Tibetans like to be a part of China, but to have this perspective in place is I think somewhat helpful to the discussion at hand. The feelings held by other lands and US protectorates/territories, from several in the Caribbean to military posts literally everywhere, would make a rather good point, but Hawaii and Puerto Rico don't quite fit...

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Well, to be fair it was a monarchy during that time when women and black Americans couldn't vote, yes, but by the time that it was... how shall we say... annexed by China it was after universal suffrage existed in the US. Yes, it was before the Civil Rights movements, but it was well after the black population got the vote, which was in the late 1860's, and women got the vote in 1920. By 1920... or was it '21?

To be fair, it wasn't until 1964 that African Americans and other minorities were given true equal treatment under the law.

I think, for the most part, Tibetans want to be treated as truly equal citizens of China. Some do not believe the PRC will ever be able to deliver on that request so they are staunchly pushing for independence. I think this is why you see most Tibetans choosing to petition Beijing for greater autonomy of Tibet. Even the Dalai Lama doesn't expect or ask for complete sovereignty.

[Exarch]

I think, for the most part, Tibetans want to be treated as truly equal citizens of China. Some do not believe the PRC will ever be able to deliver on that request so they are staunchly pushing for independence. I think this is why you see most Tibetans choosing to petition Beijing for greater autonomy of Tibet. Even the Dalai Lama doesn't expect or ask for complete sovereignty.

no, the dalai lama sneakily says he wants greater autonomy equating to complete soverignty and independance ie treason: he wants to be able to open foreign diplomacy on tibet's behalf with foreign countries, and in any case, none of the tibetans elected him to be their representative.it's the equivalent of say, hawaii or california wanting to open diplomatic relations seperate to USG policy, in a sense, treason.

but tibetans get a lot of preferential treatment under beijing; they have a level of autonomy and self governance comparable to a state in a confederacy (like a country in the EU), even better, china's wealth is helping to develop the TAR (tibet autonomous region) and they're actually free to practice their religion-something which the western media and hollywood idiots purpotedly ignore consistently