Traits and Ancillaries's game balance report

[Suppanut]

After I have read some discussion by htismaqe and Scutarii, I just realize my own fault of how my ethnic traits work have negative effect on game balance. To keep exellent balance quality of XGM work by our belove DimeBagHo, I must work on long-term maintenace on their game balance immediately. Now I already done some of triggering balance of ancillaries and still go on but I'm so stupid about stat and bonus balance as I didn't play XGM for 2 years now(partly by out of my own computer till recently and by my slave oath/contract I made unilaterally to DimeBagHo ) and I never being a skilled player.

So I need cooperation from all forum members who play XGM 5.8.X or ethnic traits to report and discuss on how to bring traits and ancillaries back to balance harmony once again.

Please report your problem and express your opinions to develop further as all your idea would help development of future version of vanilla XGM, XC's traits, and PMP to come.

*Dear Moderator, Please sticky this thread if you think it proper to.*

Here is the fix version of ethnic traits in XGM 5.8.X which include
- bug fix
- rebalance all trigger
- corrected unique ancillaries appearance time.

In version2 additionally include
- rebalance the bonus of mega traits(traits with a lot of bonus in itself) which I create early of my work to become lighter and more reasonable both to gain and its bonus(fewer bonus but more distinct in usefulness).
- reduce bonus of royal title traits.

In version3 additionally change
- add some more trigger
- change some conditions for to earn royal title for Bactria

In version4 additionally change
- reduce construction, trade, tax, and training bonus and some penalty by 30-50% in most ancillaries(not priest ancillaries since hard to balance diie to shear amount of them) while traits still the same
- Bonus of most uber ancillaries have been reduce or give more penalty

In version5 have only description fix

Here is new fix on trigger of Traits and ancillaries to ensure stability and made eastern faction can get access more high level ancillary(no longer parthia only as I done it at first place). This version also remove additional level of gamble to made it fully compatible with XGM 5.8.X without savegame incompatible.


In version7 & Fix XGM5.8.4V2 there are..
- Add more new trigger and fix the old one on eastern culture and baktria and religion

Fix version is for normal XGM5.8.4 while Version7 are for overwrite previous version.

updated fix version for Version7 and V2 have been uploaded replace old ones.

*updated 14/12/2008: Here is version 7.1 and v2.1 which fix problem from last version with data that I could recalled from my memory. I still didn't running test yet so it could still have problem, so please report every bug you found.

*updated 28/2/2009: Here is all new Ethnic Traits version 2.11 with all many features but will break savegame completely.

*updated 18/4/2009: I have upload Ethnic Traits version 2.15 with...
- description fix.
- new introduction message for all faction and campaign
- new garrison script for Camulodunum, Numantia, Sarmizegtusa, Taxila, and Teutoburgum

*updated 19/4/2009: I have upload Ethnic Traits version 2.21 with...
- new name and surname list for Baktria

*updated 20/4/2009: ET 2.3 have been upload with the length of Bactria's names list is cut due to CTD about year 230s BC

Ethnic Traits module 2.0(yes, break savegame completely)

Main feature
- Many new traits and ancillaries from XC, included whole set of unique ancillaries(+150 more)
- Sort text files for other modder friendly
- Clean-up files by removed unused traits and ancillaries as well as triggers from files
- Revised bonus and threshold of traits. Now many of good traits have some negative side in them.
- Revised ethnic module
- Rebalance ancillaries and traits and reduce trigger chances
- Mentor system, now ancillaries will influence what traits your character gains in the same way as academy do
- Ancillaries weight system, Now ancillaries will have weight and would prevent character to gain ancillaries once retinues stock is overweight.
- Reduce special building and education comes of age ancillaries triggers down to the bottom
- More garrison scripts
- Deflat epithets, now it hard to gain last level traits that have epithets
- More on tax and governing issue now there are different kind of traits up to your tax setting and faction
- Vice from imperial title, differ via culture and title under hidden "DoomedOfEmpire"
- More emphasis on the Loyalty feature with more traits and ancilliaries that affect loyalty.
- Leadership bonus from faction leader to effect overall faction's generals.
>Management: +-corruption
>Influence: +-bribe cost&loyalty

Stat Issue
- Management should harder to gain from traits
- deflat influence spam in traits
- specialization of character on command or management by stop self perpetuated once others of attribute is more than 5. I may take other measure to archive it too.

Rework and Fix
- rework on health and supply traits
- impermanence traits' bonus fix
- Rework education system, now you could change the school for your children
- Rewrite Incarnation and Karma module
- Harder to gain the Great + some new cognomens
- add random factor to reduce chance to gain ancillaries from special buildings to the bottom

New Traits&Ancillaries
- rework on gamefanromanvice
- Add Satrap trigger to parthia, seleucid, britons
- Carthage Government
>Tribunal of Judge(famous 104 to monitor generals loyalty) as normal ancillaries(not office) to monitor general with too high command(-1 command, +2 to law, +100 cost to bribe)
>Leader of Popular Assembly who increases influence and management
>Trade Union Leader who increases trade (+5%) and public order.
- Meritocracy(just+Battle)&Favouritism(unjust+battle) traits
- new greek cities and Illyrian traits
- Olympic traits

[LucretiusTC]

If there is a real risk for super-Generals and super-Governors, we could try to moderate those various bonuses that traits and ancillaries give to the Family Members. For instance in this way:

X% bonus on all trade income; changing scale from 10% to 5%, from 20% to 10%, and from 30% to 15%.

X% discount on unit training costs; changing scale from 10-20-30 to 5-10-15

X% discount on reconstruction costs; changing scale from 10-20-30 to 5-10-15.

In this way one single trait or a basic ancillary has less impact to the balance of the game. This is just opening for the discussion. I don´t want to cause too much extra work for Suppanut...

It would be nice and necessary to hear the other players suggestions and comments to this question too...


Luc.

[Stilgar CG]

If there is a real risk for super-Generals and super-Governors, we could try to moderate those various bonuses that traits and ancillaries give to the Family Members. For instance in this way:

X% bonus on all trade income; changing scale from 10% to 5%, from 20% to 10%, and from 30% to 15%.

X% discount on unit training costs; changing scale from 10-20-30 to 5-10-15

X% discount on reconstruction costs; changing scale from 10-20-30 to 5-10-15.

In this way one single trait or a basic ancillary has less impact to the balance of the game. This is just opening for the discussion. I don´t want to cause too much extra work for Suppanut...

It would be nice and necessary to hear the other players suggestions and comments to this question too...


Luc.

This is a very good point. Under no circumstances a given ancillary or even a group of ancillaries should give a too strong boost in whatever area. I also have a problem with the ability to transfer ancillaries from general to general. I always move my ancillaries from old generals to young, and I often can transform a young general into a young "Alexander" with a few mouse clicks.

I wonder if it is possible to stop ancillaries from being transferred from general to general? Because, as it stands now ancillaries are sort of immortals , and by mid game one can get quite a collection of those. If ancillaries become non-transferable, then a wider variety of ancillaries and more versatile bonuses could be accepted, right? ME

[htismaqe]

If anybody is wondering what Suppanut is talking about, I relayed to him some info about Ptolemaic campaign I had abandoned. I was using XGM version 5.8.2.

Retinue is the bigger problem, IMO, because of some of the additions in XGM. For example, in my Ptolemaic campaign my family members were gaining "Nomarch" and the like (the little red wax seals) at an alarming rate. Not only did they gain 2 or 3 of these rapidly, but they're worth a boatload of points - they're like +3 command, +2 influence, +1 management.

The retinue with multiple bonuses, or bonuses greated than +1, should be MUCH more rare.

I have a far less problem with traits than I do with the retinue.

Well, in my Ptolemaic campaign, I started with the standard family - Ptolemaios, Charikles, and Peithias. Knemos was my best chance at an up-and-coming general, so I sent him off to war and left the other 3 sitting in Alexandria, Memphis, and Thebes.

Within, oh, 10 turns or so, Charikles and Peithias EACH had 2 or 3 of the ancilliaries. I don't remember which ones exactly they were but there was bunches of them.

Which leads back to a similar point in the thread I started - somebody mentioned that by a certain point in the game, all cities are the same. You've remedied that in XC by putting population caps in, and I like that.

One of the things that lead to disinterest in my Ptolemaic campaign was that EVERY family member I had was pretty much exactly the same. 7-8 command, 7-8 management, 7-8 influence. Somebody with 7 or more points in one of the 3 areas should be rare - that's a very special individual. Somebody with 7 or more in ALL 3, that should be extremely rare.

I would really like to see family members become "specialized". For example, a family member who comes of age with a "command" trait would be more likely to gain "command" ancilliaries or retinue. In the end, you would have some family members who are suited to be governors and some who aren't. Some of them would be good generals, and some of them would not be.

In fact, some of the ancilliaries made traits completely worthless. I had a general with two traits that reduced his command by a total of 2, yet I could load him up with ancilliaries and make him a formidable general quite easily. That shouldn't happen.

[CaesarVincens]

As you asked in the XC thread, I think both reducing the chance of receiving traits and ancillaries, and raising the threshold for some traits would be a good idea.

[Scutarii]

As you asked in the XC thread, I think both reducing the chance of receiving traits and ancillaries, and raising the threshold for some traits would be a good idea.

This sounds like a pretty simple, yet effective solution to me. There's no need to completely rework the system we have right know, it just needs some tweaks. Thresholds for big retinue/traits (as htismaqe mentioned, the Nomarch) need to be raised big time, and for me personally, any retinue or traits giving command bonuses should be raised significantly. I don't have a lot of problems with it being fairly easy to get management and influence particularly for civilized factions (barbarians it should be a little harder due to a less developed educational system for noble classes etc.), but its just too easy to get a 10 star general right now (and even before Ethnic Traits was added, it was really easy. But thats just my opinion.

[aznflea]

i really dont like the fact that anciliaries give so much stats too. they should be earned not given. i think that making education give traits instead of retinues a better idea

[htismaqe]

i really dont like the fact that anciliaries give so much stats too. they should be earned not given. i think that making education give traits instead of retinues a better idea

I don't have a problem with education giving LOW-LEVEL retinue. After all, "university" is the most likely place after "work" where an adult finds life-long friends. Just make them a little more rare and make sure they're not giving +2/+3 to stats.

[Suppanut]

Currently, education traits give both traits(something their children study) and retinues(some of their friends those follow them back home). Now I work on put all radical high bonus ancillaries chance to get per trigger to 1-2% plus hard late game conditions and reduce all retinues general stats bonus to not more than 2 except office retinue which base on continuity from senat office which still retained vanilla bonus or equivalent(Censor1-2, Tribune of the Plebeians, and Dioiketes still have +3 Influence but with far harder condition to gain).

I will also think about your suggestion on remove retinue trigger from education but maybe implement after first playtest by play tester as now I already radically reduce their chance to very low of the low(1-2% according to rarity of the retinues).

What that now I have already done
Retinues
1) Reduce overall trigger chance by 30-50%
2) Reduce all basic attribute bonus(command, management, influence) of all non-office retinue to not more than 2
3) All of office retinue now harder to get which need to expand empire to certain size.
4) Reduce all education trigger on ancillaries to 1-2% according to rarity of ancillaries

Traits
1) Increase threshold on some traits especially those which give command attributes. So in next version command will relied more on their specialty(attack, defense, infantry, cavalry, siege) than just a mere overall command to fight which now made decision about when and where to fight as well as composition of army are more important than before.

Now I working on
1) Reduce traits trigger chance of non-birth/adopt/marriage trigger by 20-30%

[htismaqe]

Currently, education traits give both traits(something their children study) and retinues(some of their friends those follow them back home). Now I work on put all radical high bonus ancillaries chance to get per trigger to 1-2% plus hard late game conditions and reduce all retinues general stats bonus to not more than 2 except office retinue which base on continuity from senat office which still retained vanilla bonus or equivalent(Censor1-2, Tribune of the Plebeians, and Dioiketes still have +3 Influence but with far harder condition to gain).

I will also think about your suggestion on remove retinue trigger from education but maybe implement after first playtest by play tester as now I already radically reduce their chance to very low of the low(1-2% according to rarity of the retinues).

What that now I have already done
Retinues
1) Reduce overall trigger chance by 30-50%
2) Reduce all basic attribute bonus(command, management, influence) of all non-office retinue to not more than 2
3) All of office retinue now harder to get which need to expand empire to certain size.
4) Reduce all education trigger on ancillaries to 1-2% according to rarity of ancillaries

Traits
1) Increase threshold on some traits especially those which give command attributes. So in next version command will relied more on their specialty(attack, defense, infantry, cavalry, siege) than just a mere overall command to fight which now made decision about when and where to fight as well as composition of army are more important than before.

Now I working on
1) Reduce traits trigger chance of non-birth/adopt/marriage trigger by 20-30%

This looks superb.

[Scutarii]

That sounds great Suppanut! I don't see any problems with that, except maybe minor tweaking of occurrences in the future (if you got a value slightly off, say)

[Suppanut]

Now first fix and rebalance version have been released at the first post for everyone to try and please report your preference, bug, and suggestion.

[Suppanut]

Improved version2 have been upload and can overwrite first version without problem as there are no entry shifted between the old one and no new entry added.

In version2 additionally include
- rebalance the bonus of mega traits(traits with a lot of bonus in itself) which I create early of my work(when I still naive and green) to become lighter and more reasonable both to gain and its bonus(fewer bonus but more distinct in usefulness).
- reduce bonus of royal title traits.

You can download it from the first post.

[Webba]

Something else that occurred to me just now that you could do to balance some of the high lvl traits and ancillaries is to have multiple prerequisites for them. Like how "the Great" needs three other traits to achieve good management, command and influence traits/ancillaries could require a selection of lesser traits and ancilliaries related to them. This way a Family member could only be good at 1 or 2 things, not get full stars for everything and you would need to choose ancillaries carefully if you wanted to get the best traits for your generals.

Particular ancillaries that represent positions or responsibilites should require at least a decent ability in the related field first. For example the Roman senate positions should require at least some influence and management. The high level command traits could require a general to have both first lvl good attack and good defender traits. And so on. It could really give some RPG depth to the Family members.

[htismaqe]

Something else that occurred to me just now that you could do to balance some of the high lvl traits and ancillaries is to have multiple prerequisites for them. Like how "the Great" needs three other traits to achieve good management, command and influence traits/ancillaries could require a selection of lesser traits and ancilliaries related to them. This way a Family member could only be good at 1 or 2 things, not get full stars for everything and you would need to choose ancillaries carefully if you wanted to get the best traits for your generals.

Particular ancillaries that represent positions or responsibilites should require at least a decent ability in the related field first. For example the Roman senate positions should require at least some influence and management. The high level command traits could require a general to have both first lvl good attack and good defender traits. And so on. It could really give some RPG depth to the Family members.

Some pretty good idea here. I like the idea of adding more depth to the family members.

[Suppanut]

Thanks for idea, Webba. Although I have no plan to mess too much on triggering condition in ET module anymore but I already develop mentor system which ancillaries have effect on which traits character could be learn in XC as well as many more feature which I develop on XC and PMP which will released for XC first about this Xmas. I will also consider on how to implement traits requirement for trait in to work but will be on XC and PMP platform though.

Something I didn't do here maybe include in XC and PMP traits.

[Suppanut]

Fix version3 is released with some change in conditions of triggers and could overwrite older version without problem.

[Suppanut]

Version4 have been upload with change according to LucretiusTC and Magister Equitum suggestion on reduce income/cost bonus.

additionally change
- reduce construction, trade, tax, and training bonus and some penalty by 30-50% in most ancillaries(not priest ancillaries since hard to balance diie to shear amount of them) while traits still the same
- Bonus of most uber ancillaries have been reduce or give more penalty

[htismaqe]

I'm playing using XC submod right now. Can I just copy in the version 4 files and go, or do I need to wait until Caesar updates XC?

[Suppanut]

XC traits have more further structure than original XGM what will lost if you done by just mere overwrite or simple cut and paste so wait for Caesar is a wise way.

Current XC structure are not at my full feature as I plan yet which I will fully release it about near Xmas as I still waited Caesar to complete his university exam and rule out/edit the description of unique ancillaries. If you would like to test my future release then you could download PMP message triggering module and copy just export_descr_ancillary.txt, export_descr_character_traits.txt and folder text overwrite your XGM with XC(2.5.2 or higher) then you could enjoy some of my future release but it released before rebalance ethnic traits so it would annoy you in many ways.

If you want to test playable PMP message triggering module along with up-to-dated and future release traits of XC then tell me and I will upload up to dated version for you before Sunday.(need XC to work)