Is the katana overrated as a sword?

[Juggernaut]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Older swords can still be found today that have inscriptions on their nakago (tang) that say things such as, "5 bodies with Ryu Guruma (hip cut)".
Aside from specific cuts made on cadavers, there were the normal cuts of Japanese swordsmanship, i.e. downward diagonal (Kesa), upward diagonal (Kiri-age), horizontal (Yoko), and straight downward (Jodan-giri, Happonme, or Dotan). These cuts would then be cut on the cadavers (ex: A swordsman would do a Jodan-giri cut on 3 bodies at the hips. The inscription would then be, "3 bodies Ryu Guruma"). The easiest cut is the downward diagonal, followed by the upward diagonal, followed by the straight downward cut, and finally the hardest cut, the horizontal.

The thing is, from the example given, it doesn't really imply that a single cut went through three bodies. It says that the swordsman would do a particular cut on three bodies.

That particular sword was forged by, IIR, Seki Kanefusa and it's record was "Nanatsu-Do" meaning cutting through the center of 7 dead bodies piled up together.

But of course, using a highest quality sword used by a expert swordsmen as a mean of talking about the average quality of the katana is quite ridiculous.

[Rapax]

The relevance might be more on how many bodies a Katana can cut before it becomes dull. Contrary to popular idea, Blades don't stay endlessly sharp while cutting through countless bodies a la Kill Bill.

[Kagemusha]

The relevance might be more on how many bodies a Katana can cut before it becomes dull. Contrary to popular idea, Blades don't stay endlessly sharp while cutting through countless bodies a la Kill Bill.

In matter of fact, you dont sharpen a katana since it is constructed like a razor. The edge of the blade is made from hard steeel, which keeps its sharpness, while the body of the blade is made from softer steel, which makes the blade more endurable.

Katanas are treated with treatment called "polishing" , which allows the blade to keep its brightness and not to rust.

[Manco]

My razors sure become blunt very fast, so not sharpening a katana seems wonky. Can you elaborate?

[Kagemusha]

My razors sure become blunt very fast, so not sharpening a katana seems wonky. Can you elaborate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana_construction

[AqD]

Qing warriors are lame. They cannot compare to Japanese Samurai in terms of armaments, tactics, and pure fighting ability. Their technology was terrible, and actually went backwards as time went on. The had what, padded cloth armor? Samurai were sporting metal lamellar at that point.

Elite Qing soldiers wear brigandine, with iron plates inside. They're recorded in Ming history to be invulnerable against missiles. It's probably equal to metal lamellar, except for the apperance.

But it may be right that Qing foot infantry suck. Infantry in chinese/manchurian are always 2nd-class soldiers and have little importance when compared to cavalry.

The Japanese army of the Sengoku period had no equal in the world! They had the best armor in the world, the finest guns in the world, and they had their best swordsmiths cranking out the higest quality swords and spears in the world. Their combined use of gun and yari, a tactic known as "pike and shot" in the west was most advance and sophisticated in the world.

Combined gun and pikes/spears were already used in Ming dynasty, alongwith cannons and heavy cavalry.

All this BS from white people and Chinese people talking $hit about Japanese katanas is just jealousy. Hey, I'm Chinese and I am not afraid to give credit where credit is due. The fact is, Japanese iron lamellar armor is far more superior to plate armor. Don't let video games fool you to believe otherwise. Japanese katanas had to go up against the toughest armor available at the time. Japanese katanas are forged and scaled to the individual user's height and body mass. Can anyone say the same for European sabers? Katanas are also tested on the human flesh of a convict and given a ranking before use. The lowest grade katanas being able to slice off a limb, and the highest ranked katanas are able to chop through 5 human torsos in one slash. Again, can any European sword compare?

*sigh*

[PROMETHEUS ts]

There have been many fine swords crafted around the world, but it seems to me that the katana is the most famous. It's portrayed in movies and popular media as a super weapon that can cut through anything. There are numerous documentaries about katana’s and their construction, and many demonstrations of their cutting power. Really though, is a katana any better than say, a Toledo long sword, or a Damascus scimitar? I mean, it's still a sword right? I don't see how it would be any more powerful than a cavalry saber. Or am I missing something?

Katana is a famouse kind of sword but wasnt the bbest sword .... it assumet a sort of very "semireligious" importance in Japan especially duethe fact that Japan is a countrypoor of Iron and so its veryvaluabel...
Other countries in world Prodiuced exceptional steel and where famouse for it like as Said Damascus and Toledo or Milan armours as well.

[Nik]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana_construction

Maybe I've overread something, but nowhere do I see the claim "never sharpened after construction".

[Kagemusha]

Maybe I've overread something, but nowhere do I see the claim "never sharpened after construction".

It is not sharpened in the traditional sense of sharpening a sword because, The sword does not have what most of us think of as an edge: a bevel in the steel right near the edge that comes to a fine (sharp) edge. Instead, the entire bottom half of the blade is the edge, from the ridge line down the middle of the blade to the cutting edge is one angle, Trying to polish/sharpen this type of sword if you are not qualified will destroy it.

[Juicemisbruk]

In matter of fact, you dont sharpen a katana since it is constructed like a razor. The edge of the blade is made from hard steeel, which keeps its sharpness, while the body of the blade is made from softer steel, which makes the blade more endurable.

Katanas are treated with treatment called "polishing" , which allows the blade to keep its brightness and not to rust.

wrong, the katana gets polished by the smith who made it, then he sends it to a proffesional "sharpener" who makes it deadly...



i always thought the katana was good because it was fast but were still quite effective at the same time, while the european swords where heavy and slow but very good?

[teh.frickin.pope]

i always thought the katana was good because it was fast but were still quite effective at the same time, while the european swords where heavy and slow but very good?

http://www.thearma.org/essays/nobest.htm

Of course, the sword could have been made thicker, but then the weight would be too great for combat. Swords at this time weighed between 2 and 3 pounds, tops.

The most prominent of these swords was the Great Sword or War Sword. This is a long-bladed sword, and blades average about 40 inches in length. The sword is not particularly heavy, weighing 4 to 5 pounds.

Light and flat cutting blades were abandoned. The sword profile with a blade wide at the top and tapering very sharply, stayed pretty much the same. However, the cross-section became a thick, flattened diamond, and the sword became quite rigid. Weight varied a great deal. Some blades stayed light, weighing 2 to 3 pounds, while others went upwards of 5 pounds.

[Carpathian Wolf]

There have been many fine swords crafted around the world, but it seems to me that the katana is the most famous. It's portrayed in movies and popular media as a super weapon that can cut through anything. There are numerous documentaries about katana’s and their construction, and many demonstrations of their cutting power. Really though, is a katana any better than say, a Toledo long sword, or a Damascus scimitar? I mean, it's still a sword right? I don't see how it would be any more powerful than a cavalry saber. Or am I missing something?

Yea pretty over rated. The fan boyz will soon abound if they havn't already.

[Manco]

Katanas are made with incredible craftsmanship, that's where the myth comes from I think. Unfortunately craftsmanship isn't the same as quality, especially when that craftsmanship was born out of necessity (because of low quality iron).

[Old_Scratch]

Hmm, I didn't expect this thread to rise again. Anyway...

i always thought the katana was good because it was fast but were still quite effective at the same time, while the european swords where heavy and slow but very good?

It depends on what time period and location in Europe you're talking about, generally though that's a misconception. The katana came about in the late 14th and early 15th centuries. During the same time frame in Europe fine steel swords were being produced of the same quality. They were sharp, flexible, and balanced. Steel swords from Toledo are an example. The extent of the skill of metal workers in Europe can also be seen in the armor produced in this time period.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

I dont think why we should create new posts when there is already one even if not so new .... Makes sense?

anyway

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/index.php

here you can find all answers you need about swords informations , a SIte that together with this ..

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/

Will help you understand , I personally used those forum and was hellped about especially on the Itallian Site

http://www.intk-token.it/forum/index.php?

to make my Ito no maki tach Koshirae



wich is still a wip ....


how to resize a image on this forum?

[Juicemisbruk]

anyways, there HAS to be a nr 1 sword... if you put 2 experts with the sword they are using up against each other one would win , which means he is using a better sword...

[Holger Danske]

HA! The Katana is for women. This, however, is a true mans weapon!

[Nik]

anyways, there HAS to be a nr 1 sword... if you put 2 experts with the sword they are using up against each other one would win , which means he is using a better sword...

Eh, no?
Generallly speaking, better/best are subjective terms, based on a set of subjectively chosen characteristics and a subjective weighting of said characteristics.
When applied to the sword question, you have to start to decide if the fight is a one on one duell or in the midts of a battle, on which armor the contestants are carrying, what their starting positions are, if they are carrying shields, etc etc etc.
But a sword is not, and never was, the universally otpimized weapon some people think it to be. Each was adapted to and optimised for the technical and warfare environment it was used in.
So a gladius was optimized for close-up pushing melees with large shields, used both to stab and cut.
The frankish blades the vikings used where optimized to survive a hit on a steel rimmed shield and long enough to reach body parts not needed by a sword.
The Estoc had a dimanond shaped cross section used to punch through armor etc etc. The list is pracitcally endless.

[Mangalore]

The only reason why the Katana as a sword is so overhyped is because it was actually still used in war in the 1940s when comparable European swords had been abolished for centuries.

Simple reason: Europeans could kill better and faster with better and faster guns and saw no reason for swords anymore.

Overall I think there is little indication that the Katana has any special properties European or other Asiatic swords for a similar purpose didn't have as well. The claim that the metallurgy is special seems strange given that the European armories of the 16th centuries required a far greater sophistication to create all this full metal armor, weapons and artillery.

Aren't there already accounts about the Dacian Falx being capable to cut through a man the length of his body and the two handed weapon being capable to kill I believe the story said decapitate horse and rider with one stroke?

The Katana certainly did its job and shaped one culture profoundly but to assume it is superior when everyone else had moved on to better ways of killing seems strange.

[Eien]

that poor chaps' weapon won't even last a strike lol