Is the katana overrated as a sword?

[Old_Scratch]

There have been many fine swords crafted around the world, but it seems to me that the katana is the most famous. It's portrayed in movies and popular media as a super weapon that can cut through anything. There are numerous documentaries about katana’s and their construction, and many demonstrations of their cutting power. Really though, is a katana any better than say, a Toledo long sword, or a Damascus scimitar? I mean, it's still a sword right? I don't see how it would be any more powerful than a cavalry saber. Or am I missing something?

[Stavroforos]

From what I recall reading, probably on Wikipedia and a long time ago, is that katanas are great for slashing flesh, but fail against armor and against heavier European swords. Their level of craftsmanship however is very high.

[hellheaven1987]

Katana...

1. Like Chinese Sword, Katana is not a slash weapon.

2. Katana would break if someone tried to use it like butcher knife; in fact, slash bones is a very damaging action for katana.

3. If really want to compare, Scimitar is probably the closest to Katana (those in India and Persia, though).

[Ringeck]

Very little time.

A nihon-to is not much lighter than an average european medieval or early modern one-hander. Both sword types vary considerably in weight anyway - some katanas (and we're talking orignal blades here, not the "ideal blade" which doesn't really exist for european swords and is a modern invention for the katana) weigh as much as an european longsword ("bastard sword" which is typically far longer than a katana).

Laminated bamboo was not especially common in 16th-17th century japan as armour for the properly equipped.

One-handed swords and longswords are typically unsuited for cutting metal armour; they are specialized toward cutting flesh; armour penetration is reserved for polearms, picks, axes and suchlike.

Swords were typically back-up weapons; on the battlefield the average japanese 16th century warrior would use his polearm or bow before he pulled his sword out. Same goes in europe.

See this thread:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...51#post3979951

For more answers, look here:
www.swordforum.com

[hessia78]

at least european longswords can be used with techniques to get around the issues of armour such as halfswording allowing you target the chinks in an opponents armour much more easily with thrusting or the mordhau where you invert your grip on the sword by holding on the end of the blade allowing you to hit your opponents with pommel or crossguard turning the sword into make shift mace or hammer. Not as good as the dedicated weapons such as the polearms or picks but at least you can have options with an European longsword.

[Påsan]

Katana...

1. Like Chinese Sword, Katana is not a slash weapon.

2. Katana would break if someone tried to use it like butcher knife; in fact, slash bones is a very damaging action for katana.

3. If really want to compare, Scimitar is probably the closest to Katana (those in India and Persia, though).

[Markas]

It was an excellent for the time and place of it's use, but taken out of that place it was as you say simply another sword. Against armour more sophisticated than laminated bamboo it's weakness would surely have been exposed quickly enough, but the fact remains by the time Europeans had contacted Japan they had forgone most heavy armour and the Japanese adopted firearms with relish, and proved decisive in battles such as Nagashino. I remember debating a katana fanboy and he presented 'evidence' a katana could cut through plate armour- a youtube clip of a man in his backyard hacking at a rusty barrel!

[Iscariott]

"best sword evar" comes down to preference and purpose. Curved swords of decent weight have a certain 'feel' to them(i prefer it to straight blades). The Japanese longswords purpose was to cut flesh, which it does exceptionally well. They had all manner of better suited weapons for dealing with armored heavy infantry/cavalry, just like the west did.

The western sword seemed to be heavily adapted to work in many areas a Japanese sword might not fare so well, for instance piercing joints of armor. The Japanese sword more highly specialized in cutting power.

[Caelius]

Yes, it is.

Their level of craftsmanship however is very high.

And this is the reason it is.

The reason the Katana is overrated as sword stems from the mythos surrounding its craftsmanship as a weapon.

What people fail to understand is that the Japanese had to have a high level of craftsmanship in their weapons. Primarily because the quality of metal they had available to work with was not up to par with the kinds of metals that European weapons of the same periods would've been produced with.

That fact is precisely the same reason why the Japanese never got around to producing metal armored protective suits in the same way that Europeans did.

Hence the long and arduous process with which Japanese blacksmiths had to go through continually refining and strengthening the blade of a Katana so that it would wear down or break while under continued use.

[Exarch]

who cares what sword you use, so long as you stab the enemy with the pointy end

[Kagemusha]

Too many misconceptions in this thread to answer shortly, so i will answer when i have more time. Just something to read for the crowd who thinks that Japanese armour was made from laminated bamboo:

http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html

Also it is true that Katana could not defeat plate armour, but then what sword could? There were real reasons for use of polearms and maces against plate armour all around the world.

Also its a huge misconception that Katana was so brittle that it could not cut bone without chipping, when Japanese tested lots of time the sharpness of their blades by cutting corpses or living criminals who were tied together. More deep the blade cut, better it was deemed.

Katana is in no way a "perfect" sword, like any other sword it was suited for its purpose in its natural enviroment.I will write a more detailed post when i have more time.

[Markas]

Too many misconceptions in this thread to answer shortly, so i will answer when i have more time. Just something to read for the crowd who thinks that Japanese armour was made from laminated bamboo:

http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html

I recall reading laquered bamboo was used in Japanese armour to redirect blows from the torso as it is in Bōgu but I'm not sure where or how accurate it is. That's probably where my misconception came from.

Also its a huge misconception that Katana was so brittle that it could not cut bone without chipping, when Japanese tested lots of time the sharpness of their blades by cutting corpses or living criminals who were tied together. More deep the blade cut, better it was deemed.

I've heard this and can buy it but the mythologising tends to overshadow fact. The 'perfect' sword was said to be able to cut marble(!). Hollywood should be high on the list of perpetrators. Oddly in Kurasawa films there's much less sword-wanking.

Katana is in no way a "perfect" sword, like any other sword it was suited for its purpose in its natural enviroment.I will write a more detailed post when i have more time.

Absolutely.

[Phunkracy]

Many people think that katana is the best sword, bringing up arcanes of sword-smithing and it's legendary power as a proof. The truth is, however, that katana is definetly overrated. We can see many runner-ups, which are equal or better in different conditions than katana, such as polish hussar sabre, french napoleonic sabre, persian and damacus scimitars, or chinese miao-dao swords or other daos.
Why is it so overrated then? Particulary, because Saumrai and other ninja-stuff is just cool. Katana, Ninjas and saumaris became part of pop-culture, and for average people who don't have much knowledge about swords, it's even more cool. When there were so many films about ninjas chopping and owning everyone with their katanas, it's easy to think that way.
The other argument is that samurais fought rather against other samurais, because Nippon was pretty isolated and politicaly divided. There's hardly any comparison to other swords, when you fight with katana against katana. Even Myamoto Musashi, the best swordsman amongst samurai, preffered large, solid stick! During times of samurais invasion Korea failed (if samurais were so cool, why won't them succeed against Koreans?). and later, in First Sino-Japanese War Japs preffered european sabres or bayonettes.

Finest blacksmithing? Geez, don't make me laugh... Is the damascene steel worse? Or Napoleonic/Early Modern steel is worse?

Such proofs as guys with katana choping bamboo sticks doesn't make any proof, because you could do same thing with ANY medieval/reinessance/early modern/ napoleonic sword.

[Kagemusha]

Many people think that katana is the best sword, bringing up arcanes of sword-smithing and it's legendary power as a proof. The truth is, however, that katana is definetly overrated. We can see many runner-ups, which are equal or better in different conditions than katana, such as polish hussar sabre, french napoleonic sabre, persian and damacus scimitars, or chinese miao-dao swords or other daos.
Why is it so overrated then? Particulary, because Saumrai and other ninja-stuff is just cool. Katana, Ninjas and saumaris became part of pop-culture, and for average people who don't have much knowledge about swords, it's even more cool. When there were so many films about ninjas chopping and owning everyone with their katanas, it's easy to think that way.
The other argument is that samurais fought rather against other samurais, because Nippon was pretty isolated and politicaly divided. There's hardly any comparison to other swords, when you fight with katana against katana. Even Myamoto Musashi, the best swordsman amongst samurai, preffered large, solid stick! During times of samurais invasion Korea failed (if samurais were so cool, why won't them succeed against Koreans?). and later, in First Sino-Japanese War Japs preffered european sabres or bayonettes.

Finest blacksmithing? Geez, don't make me laugh... Is the damascene steel worse? Or Napoleonic/Early Modern steel is worse?

Such proofs as guys with katana choping bamboo sticks doesn't make any proof, because you could do same thing with ANY medieval/reinessance/early modern/ napoleonic sword.

This post clearly shows the ignorance hanging around this thread and in general the vestigitia vetustatis subforum also. If something is not the absolutely "best" it has to be the worst.

For the writer i suggest studying bit of Imjin war. Koreans were soundly defeated and steamrolled in just few moths during the first invasion and without the invasion of Chinese, they would have been conquered. Stating that the success or not of Imjin war was based on inferiority of Katana as a sword is ridiculous. Katana was always a side arm and the initial success of Imjin war was mostly based on large scale use of firearms on the Japanese side. Some daimyos even stated that all troops entering korea should be armed with teppo muskets, while this must have been an exaggeration.

[MaximiIian]

Katana is one of the most overrated weapons ever.
It's great against flesh, cloth, and light armour like the kind Japanese samurai wore. Leather, or lamellar iron. That kind of thing.

But against plate iron, steel, or mail, it would be awful, unless its a very well-made blade wielded by an exceptionally strong swordsman. The likelihood of that is iffy, considering the widespread use of the weapon in mediaeval Japan and the consequent method of mass manufacture.

Like most weapons, it's very culturally-specific and developed to counter the defences of the time in which it was made. But the unique situation with Japanese armaments and armour led to the very specific usage style of the katana.

[Manco]

If I'm not mistaken many knights used swords against each other exactly because it was less lethal. Surviving nobles were worth a lot of money and were good for bartering in a peace settlement.
The lesser soldiers would have worn less armour and the sword would be effective enough against them.

It's also no coincidence that swords became less popular with the spread of armour among non-nobles and nobles became less important.

[fieldmarshal]

No weapon is over-rated, they do what they were designed for very well.

[Pious Agnost]

I think what he means by overpowered is the insane belief that a Katana will out-perform every other sword in combat. Personally I'd rather a Claymore, but I'm not sure if I could lift a decent one :hmmm:

[Ringeck]

I think what he means by overpowered is the insane belief that a Katana will out-perform every other sword in combat. Personally I'd rather a Claymore, but I'm not sure if I could lift a decent one :hmmm:

Since even the largest two-handed monster version weighs around the same as two and a half milk carton (scandinavian issue milk carton), I sure hope you can. At least if you can usually keep from collapsing under the weight of your clothes.

[Pious Agnost]

Since even the largest two-handed monster version weighs around the same as two and a half milk carton (scandinavian issue milk carton), I sure hope you can. At least if you can usually keep from collapsing under the weight of your clothes.

Those Scots and their ungodly strength (Collapses due to the weight of clothes)