Liberals

[Calamari]

Disclaimer: Americans aint that bad but they are my example in this case. Also I'm leaving out the socialist/conservative economic viewpoints out (as much as possible).

I hear lots of Americans (and a few Brits for that matter) bash liberals and generaly hate them for ruining the country. What I don't get is these liberals stand for liberty and freedom. America makes a big deal about freedom of speech, the right to bear arms and democracy. If people were to start complete censorship of media, romove the vote and take away people's guns there would be an uproar because people are violating these rights. What I'm trying to say is that everything that "america stands for" is liberty, just look at the 100 foot green thing in NYC.

Why is it then that liberals are one step away from Hitler when liberals created the very things Americans are proud of?

Im not trying to flame I'm only trying to get to the bottom of this.

[Strattios]

Liberals =/= liberty.

Look at the facts man.

Liberals (general political stance) are against the right to bear arms.

Most mainstream media outlets are liberal (CNN, NBC, MSNBC, etc.) and are proven to be heavily biased to a liberal agenda.

Liberal politicians are more inclined to restrict things such as ratings (for video games and such).

They hate "big" businesses and many ideas are against commercial globalisms, yet often use what these companies provide.

They restrict laws in areas such as construction and land development as well as what a company can do with employees to an insane amount.

Liberals are a hypocrites. They are less for "rights" than Conservatives. They let you mess your self up and give you self satisfying freedoms (drugs, "choice", and such) yet want to restrict business and many productive rights.

Look at the bill of rights:

Article One:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Who is the one constantly trying to eliminate all traces of religion? Liberals.
As for press, time and again it is proven to be biased heavily to the left. And which mainstream media network is proven to be the most fair and balanced? The so called Vast Right Wing Conspiracy machine known as FOX NEWS.

Article Two:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

The Liberal agenda just seems to want to forget this one ever existed.

Article Four:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Tell that to the damn AG in Washington State. Secure my ass. More like unwarranted searches, then when your discovered you quickly get a judge to OK it.

Article Five:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Does it say anything about foreigners accused of terrorism? No, it even nullifies itself in times of war.

The rest are upheld by both parties with little disagreement. Mainly just some "where to draw the line" type of disagreements.

And for those who must really have the cite; just go here http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...lofrights.html
or just about any other somewhat decent place of reference. Just watch out for people cutting stuff out to further their cause.

[El Brujo]

The people known as "liberals" in American politics aren't really liberal. They are intellectuals and idealists who see themselves as the philosopher-kings of Plato's Republic. They feel that the state must be used to protect people from themselves and to take care of them, because people are too stupid to live their own lives as they see fit. In the accomplishment of this goal, freedom is just one of many obstacles.

[Calamari]

The people known as "liberals" in American politics aren't really liberal. They are intellectuals and idealists who see themselves as the philosopher-kings of Plato's Republic. They feel that the state must be used to protect people from themselves and to take care of them, because people are too stupid to live their own lives as they see fit. In the accomplishment of this goal, freedom is just one of many obstacles.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with that one. Thing is do these American "liberals" call themselves liberal or is that a tag that put upon them?

I would call myself liberal but I am very few of those things above. With one exception and I now I'm gonna be called a hypocrite for this but I don't see the need for private citizens to bear arms, its an old law from a time when people were in danger of being scalped and chasing redskins n such. Anyway gun control itself is off topic .

I get the feeling that America's liberals, as you describe them above, are a bit like Tony Blair, he wanted a utopia but ended up controlling everything for the sake of "security".

Any other thoughts?

[Last Roman]

The people known as "liberals" in American politics aren't really liberal.

this. the usage of liberal in the US has been twisted. If you are going to generalize a whole segment of the population, call them "leftists" (even though I generally hate political terms as they rarely are sufficient enough)

[Rush Limbaugh]

A libertarian sympathiser to the fundamental evangelical cause. As in your rhetoric.

You mean like the founders

And dont forget I dispize organised religion. Not for the religious part however. I hate conformity. God makes the rules not some church.

[Каие]

You mean like the founders

That's your belief.

I hate conformity. God makes the rules not some church.

Then we are in further agreement. Boy, this is getting quite scary.

[Their Law]

Liberals is a much misused term now as people seem to confuse it with the idea of liberty. But as it has been posted liberals are often in favor of tighter controls in certain areas such as guns in america and here in the uk tighter control of businesses and the economy. At the same time conservatives are often against abortion or the idea of it and are often associated with lack of freedoms as well.

Obviously I'm a bit biased as anyone will realize from looking at my sig. But at the same time i consider the freedom to walk down a street knowing that the vast majority of people do not have the capacity to blow my brains out strangely comforting to the alternative.

[Justinian]

Um, this thread seems a little strange...

When you hear people talking about that, they're frustrated right wingers who are sad that the complete and utter farce of a government we've had for the last 8 years tanked and they've lost embarrassingly in the last two elections (2006 elections and 2008 presidential and elections). Don't believe their grumblings.

"Liberal" in America simply means "everyone who isn't a Republican" or "everyone who isn't Christian", interchangeably. Granted, plenty of people use the word liberal in a completely non derogatory fashion, but the majority of angry right wingers who throw liberal around as if it means "Nazi" are referring to that because liberals are seen as tree hugging hippies who love big gay orgies and free pot for all, which is simply not the case.

It's the common political tactic of demonizing the enemy.

[Strattios]

Um, this thread seems a little strange...

When you hear people talking about that, they're frustrated right wingers who are sad that the complete and utter farce of a government we've had for the last 8 years tanked and they've lost embarrassingly in the last two elections (2006 elections and 2008 presidential and elections). Don't believe their grumblings.

"Liberal" in America simply means "everyone who isn't a Republican" or "everyone who isn't Christian", interchangeably. Granted, plenty of people use the word liberal in a completely non derogatory fashion, but the majority of angry right wingers who throw liberal around as if it means "Nazi" are referring to that because liberals are seen as tree hugging hippies who love big gay orgies and free pot for all, which is simply not the case.

It's the common political tactic of demonizing the enemy.

Kettle calling the pot black.

And no, these are facts. Have you read any of the agenda's of Liberal politicians? It is exactly as I stated. And no, unlike your naivety, "Liberal" isn't used to describe everyone who isn't "Republican" or Christian. And it's odd that Liberals are now trying to separate themselves from Nazi's after securely using that name on anyone who disagreed with them. I guess people realized that it was the National Socialist Party, hardly a Conservative ideal.

To Calamari: I am going to assume you either live in a city or a suburb (correct me if I'm wrong). The reason is that you only view guns as a means of attack, not a necessary tool that is important to have on hand. Guns are very important for people who don't live in safe areas that don't have threat of dangerous wildlife.

Even if you don't have threat of wildlife, there is always the possibility of human assault. Even if they don't have a gun, you are still at a disadvantage. Guns are, in large part, the great equalizer. If criminals knew that every person around them had a gun and was willing to use it. Also, look at history. Nations with gun control laws have more oppressive governments. Look at history, everywhere from Turkey and Nazi Germany, to the Balkans, Soviet Russia, and Uganda have had massive government sanctioned killings or "genocides", all had gun control laws in place. It's a lot harder to round up people and kill them if they can defend themselves.

[ivan_the_terrible]

Also, look at history. Nations with gun control laws have more oppressive governments. Look at history, everywhere from Turkey and Nazi Germany, to the Balkans, Soviet Russia, and Uganda have had massive government sanctioned killings or "genocides", all had gun control laws in place. It's a lot harder to round up people and kill them if they can defend themselves.

You assume the relationship between gun control and government oppression is causation. Your argument is essentially that gun control causes government oppression. How can you prove it's causation and not correlation?

[MasterOfNone]

If a license is needed for a gun then there is an implication that government is granting you that "right" which, as a corollary to that, must mean that the law presupposes you have no natural right to use your own property to defend and otherwise service yourself in a lawful manner. In other words you cannot have a "rigth to keep and bear arms" on the one hand and "gun control" mandated by government on the other - they are contraditory.

The only true measure of government is how it fulfils its role to protect rights. What "liberals" fail to see is that there is no need to violate rights in order to protect them.

[jclee423]

one has the right to be not be shot in the face while walking down the street.

[Justice and Mercy]

Liberals are ruining the country?

Nah. Socialists pretending to be liberals, and more recently, socialists pretending to be conservatives, are ruining the country.

They steal political terms. Stealing is in their nature... a symptom of the disease.

[Calamari]

Liberals is a much misused term now as people seem to confuse it with the idea of liberty. But as it has been posted liberals are often in favor of tighter controls in certain areas such as guns in america and here in the uk tighter control of businesses and the economy. At the same time conservatives are often against abortion or the idea of it and are often associated with lack of freedoms as well.

"Liberals" that want heavy govornment involvment are realy socialists though. I'm trying to talk more on the Authoritarian/Libiterian scale. But point taken

To Calamari: I am going to assume you either live in a city or a suburb (correct me if I'm wrong). The reason is that you only view guns as a means of attack, not a necessary tool that is important to have on hand. Guns are very important for people who don't live in safe areas that don't have threat of dangerous wildlife.

Even if you don't have threat of wildlife, there is always the possibility of human assault. Even if they don't have a gun, you are still at a disadvantage. Guns are, in large part, the great equalizer. If criminals knew that every person around them had a gun and was willing to use it. Also, look at history. Nations with gun control laws have more oppressive governments. Look at history, everywhere from Turkey and Nazi Germany, to the Balkans, Soviet Russia, and Uganda have had massive government sanctioned killings or "genocides", all had gun control laws in place. It's a lot harder to round up people and kill them if they can defend themselves.

I can understand with wildlife. In the UK we don't have bears or alligators, we have badgers that might give you nasty nip but thats about it. With regards to defense against human attack... well there are ways of defending yourself without something as powerful as a gun. Martial arts perhaps? Although I know your going to say martial artists are just as dangerous but there is a lot smaller chance of hurting some passerby whilst doing a roundhouse kick than emptying a clip at someone.

With regards to the conservative parties being against abortion, they are also (to the best of my limited knowledge) against things like gay marriage and other stuff like that. So are both sides of the "Liberal" and "conservative" debate just as bad as each other when it comes to peoples rights?

[MasterOfNone]

Justice & Mercy said:

Liberals are ruining the country?

Nah. Socialists pretending to be liberals, and more recently, socialists pretending to be conservatives, are ruining the country.

They steal political terms. Stealing is in their nature... a symptom of the disease

That's very perceptive and imho 100% true.

Of course, classical liberalism is what we might call (or be nearer to) libertarian or traditional conservatism today. The Founders of the US would have been classical liberals, but never modern-day liberals.

[MaximiIian]

In the US, "Liberal" (capital L) is usually used to refer to our social-democrats. But even so, our Liberals are barely social-democratic. They're more like Jacksonian-era Whigs, really.

What you have to keep in mind is that, the US never had a conservative/reactionary backlash against classical liberalism and Enlightenment idealism, because our revolution actually worked.
So, we never never really had political and social conditions that would cause socialist ideology to develop on its own as it had in Europe. So, we never developed a strongly far-left ideal, nor a strongly far-right ideal. American politics is by and large centred on slight variations on classical liberalism, or simply "liberalism" (small L).

Not necessarily a bad thing, of course. As a democratic socialist, I agree with most Liberal ideals.
It all depends on one's point of view.

Liberals are ruining the country?
Nah. Socialists

Improper label. American social-democrats aren't really socialist. They're applying socialist economics half-way, so it ends up being half-assed sometimes. Completely different from real socialism, which is something I've told you a thousand times.
But you never seem to get it through your head.

[Shaun]

Liberals are ruining the country?

Nah. Socialists pretending to be liberals, and more recently, socialists pretending to be conservatives, are ruining the country.

They steal political terms. Stealing is in their nature... a symptom of the disease.

Can't disagree with this at all.

[Viking Prince]

Liberals are ruining the country?

Nah. Socialists pretending to be liberals, and more recently, socialists pretending to be conservatives, are ruining the country.

They steal political terms. Stealing is in their nature... a symptom of the disease.

Good points. But all political groups are language thieves -- part of the process. This is why it is better to look to the individual and the actions taken rather than the group. I am of course guilty of this also.

[foxnds]

Good points. But all political groups are language thieves -- part of the process. This is why it is better to look to the individual and the actions taken rather than the group. I am of course guilty of this also.

I agree