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Thread: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

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    Default Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    In response to the hilarious "The Dark Ages - Missed 500 years, O rly?" thread, which you can find here, I thought I'd post some eyewitness accounts of how people actually thought and lived their life in the Middle Ages. Make the conclusions about it that you will.

    Thought control in the 12th century:
    Master Gilbert, bishop of Poitiers, was summoned to the court to answer the great Bernard of Clairvaux, on certain matters which had been brought up at Paris. Certain statements had been found in the bishop's commentary on the De Trinitate of Boethius, and the writings of his pupils seemed reprehensible to the learned, either because they were inconsistent with accepted beliefs or because they just seemed inconsistent through novelty of expression. Many attacked him, but the fiercest assailants were Sugar, abbot of St. Denis, and two canons of Poitiers, Calo who later became bishop of the same church, and master Arnold; the masters of the schools also, Pierre Lombard later bishop of Paris, and Robert of Melun afterwards bishop of Hereford, led an embittered attack on him. Thus, Bernard of Clairvaux attacked the two men most famous for their learning -- Peter Abelard and this Gilbert -- and pursued them with such zeal that he secured the condemnation of Peter, and only just failed in the condemnation of the other. [Peter Abelard had his genitals torn off, and thrown to spend the rest of his life in a monastery] I am sure that now Gilbert no longer disagrees with the abbot and the other saints, for they both see face to face the truth they spent their lives in seeking. In the past Bishop Gilbert often used words from ancient writings which are uncommon in modern works; several words which are now hackneyed and common in the schools, when he introduced them, seemed to everyone to be "impious novelties".

    Upon the appointed day, bishop Gilbert joined the conflict with confidence, and though many men questioned him searchingly, he supported his answers with such sound arguments and authorities that he could not be tripped up verbally. The disputation was prolonged. Another day, when the lord pope was sitting in consistory, he himself questioned the bishop again on the same chapters, and ordered one of the scribes of the court to read aloud the book which was said to contain the bishop's errors. Whereat the bishop cried out that he ought to be judged on his own works, not the works of others; and that no-one, leas of all a bishop, ought to be condemned unless he had either confessed or been convicted of a crime, having in mind what previously happened to Peter. He was not, he said, a heretic and would never be one, for he was ready and always had been to recognize truth and respect apostolic doctrine; for it was not ignorance of truth that made a heretic, but a pride which presumed to cause disputes. He said he had spoken openly to the world in schools and churches, and had taught nothing in secret: he had written on the Psalms and the epistles of Paul and if there was error in his works he was willing to submit himself to correction or punishment. Likewise he did write on the De Trinitate of Boethius: and if any error be found in it he admitted it would be his, and he would be at pains to make amends.

    The scribe continued reading from the book, and in the first chapter was the statement that baptism does not bring remission of sin to the foredoomed, and has not the virtue of a sacrament for such persons, but is no more value than a bath to them. Whereat the bishop flared up and exclaimed to the pope: "You see, Father, how you treat me when the errors of others are recited in your holy consistory to my shame. I avow that I had several pupils who admittedly have all heard me lecture, but some of whom did not understand what I said; what they have written is their interpretation, not my meaning.

    You would do better to summon them to answer for this pamphlet! What more can I say! Like you I pronounce anathema on this book and all the heresies written in it, and on its author; whoever he is, may he be condemned to eternal death on the Judgment Day with all other heretics!"

    The cardinals and others said this should be sufficient defense for the bishop against accusations based on this book; and the pope commanded it to be destroyed. At once, in the sight of all, the scribe chopped the book into tiny fragments and scattered them.
    -John of Salisbury, Historia Pontificalis, trans. Marjorie Chibnall (Edinburgh and London, Thomas Nelson & Sons Ltd., and New York, Oxford University Press, Inc., 1956), pp. 15-27 passim.


    Eyewitness accounts of Europeans in Jerusalem (12th century):
    Mysterious are the works of the Creator, the author of all things! When one comes to recount cases regarding the Franks, he cannot but glorify Allah (exalted he be!) and our faith, for in the Franks he sees but animals, possessing the virtues of courage and fighting but nothing else; just as animals have only the virtues of strength and carrying loads. I shall now give some instances of their doings and their mentality.

    One time they had brought in a knight in whose leg an abscess had grown; and a woman afflicted with imbecility. To the knight I applied a small poultice until the abscess opened and became well; and the woman I put on a diet and made her humor wet. Then a physician of the Franks came to them and said, "this man knows nothing about treating patients." He then said to the man, "which would you prefer, living with one leg or dying with two?" The latter replied, "Living with one leg." The physician said, "Bring me a strong knight and a sharp ax." A knight came with the ax. And I was standing by. Then the physician laid the leg of the patient on a block of wood and bade the knight strike his leg with the ax and chop it off at one blow. Accordingly he struck it--while I was looking on--one blow, but the leg was not severed. He dealt another blow, upon which the marrow of the leg flowed out and the patient died on the spot. He then examined the woman and said, "This is a woman in whose head there is a devil which has possessed her. Shave off her hair." Accordingly they shaved it off and the woman began once more to eat their ordinary diet--garlic and mustard. Her imbecility took a turn for the worse. The physician then said, "The devil has penetrated through her head." He therefore took a razor, made a deep cruciform incision in her forehead, peeled off the skin at the middle of the incision until the bone of the skull was exposed and rubbed it with salt. The woman also expired instantly. Thereupon I asked them whether my services were needed any longer, and when they replied in the negative I returned home, having learned of their medicine what I did not know before.

    Whenever I visited Jerusalem I always entered the Aqsa Mosque, beside which stood a small mosque which the Franks had converted into a church. When I used to enter the Aqsa Mosque, which was occupied by the Templars, who were my friends, the Templars would evacuate the little adjoining mosque so that I might pray in it. One day I entered this mosque, repeated the first formula, "Allah is great," and stood up in the act of praying, upon which one of the Franks rushed on me, got hold of me and turned my face eastward saying, "This is the way thou shouldst pray!" A group of Templars hastened to him, seized him and repelled him from me. I resumed my prayer. The same man, while the others were otherwise busy, rushed once more on me and turned my face eastward, saying, "This is the way though shouldst pray!" The Templars again came in to him and expelled him. They apologized to me, saying, "This is a stranger who has only recently arrived from the land of the Franks and he has never before seen anyone praying except eastward." Thereupon I said to myself, "I have had enough prayer."

    I went out, and have ever since thought wonderingly of this man, at the change in the color of his face, his trembling, and the convulsion of his whole figure upon me.

    One day a Frank went home and found a man with his wife in the same bed. He asked him, "What could have made thee enter into my wife's room?" The man replied, "I was tired, so I went in to rest." But how," asked he, didst thou get into my bed?" The other replied, "I found a bed that was spread, so I slept in it." "But," said he, "my wife was sleeping together with thee!" The other replied, "Well the bed is hers. How could I therefore have prevented her from using her own bed?"

    "By the truth of my religion..." said the husband, "if thou shouldst do it again, thou and I would have a quarrel." Then the man went away; and we have long thought about the Frank's reaction to his words.

    A curious case relating to their medicine is another story, which was related to me by William of Bures the lord of Tiberias, who was one of the principal chiefs among the Franks. He told us, "We had in our country a knight, who was taken ill and was on the point of death. We thereupon came to one of our great priests and said to him, "Come with us and examine our knight." "I will," he replied, and walked along with us while we were assured in ourselves that if he would only lay his hand on the knight, the patient would recover. When the priest saw the patient he said, "Bring me some wax." We fetched him a little wax, which he softened and shaped like the knuckles of fingers, and then stuck one in each nostril. The knight died on the spot. We said to him, "He is dead." "Yes," he replied, "he was suffering great pain, so I closed up his nose that he might die and get relief." Thus we learned of the Franks' medicine.

    I once went in the company of al-Amir Mu-in-al-Din (may Allah's mercy rest upon his soul) to Jerusalem. There we saw Franks putting on trial a man who was suspected of some malfeasance. This is how he was tried, according to the Frankish way of procedure.

    They installed a huge cask and filled it with water. Across it they set a board of wood. They then bound the arms of the man, tied a rope around his shoulders and dropped him into the cask, their idea being that in the case he was innocent, he would sink in the water and they would then lift him up with the rope so that he might not die in the water; and in case he was guilty, he would not sink in the water. This man did his best to sink when they dropped him in the water, but he could not do it. So he had to submit to their sentence against him--they pierced his eyeballs with red-hot awls, may Allah's curse be upon them!
    -An Arab-Syrian Gentleman and Warrior in the Period of the Crusades, trans. P.K.Hitti (New York, Columbia University Press, 1929), pp.161-170


    500 years wasted? Yes, really.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; November 19, 2008 at 01:24 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  2. #2
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    I wouldn't say they were wasted.

    Mediaeval chroniclers had a tendency to make up reather illustrious stories about demons and horrible wounds overflowing with pus, and tortures causing pain beyond the imagination of a 21st Century person, when in reality that happens everywhere in the world from the dawn of humanity to the present day, and only in the past 100 years have we been able to do anything about it.

    Consider also, that if you are chronicling the present day, you do not say:

    "A story related to me by Anthonyus Smith of number 4 tells of how a young man was going into the bathroom and brushing his teeth, whereupon he saw a great tome wrapped in an iridescent material. He found upon examining it, that is was the new James Bond DVD, which was by far the best one ever made. And thus he watched it, and as a result... etc"

    ? Not very exciting reading material, everyday life, is it? You write about the terrible woes, injustices and gross bloodyness of war, famine, anarchy and crime.
    Last edited by Copperknickers II; November 19, 2008 at 02:22 PM.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    nice reading

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    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Nice collection of mixed text parts (with some carefully left out texts), proving exactly nothing.....
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
    quis enim dubitat quin multis iam saeculis, ex quo vires illius ad Romanorum nomen accesserint, Italia quidem sit gentium domina gloriae vetustate sed Pannonia virtute

    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Good reading:
    The Historia of Richer of Reims, the principal source for the late tenth century.
    Ritcher´s history (ca 990A.D.) belies an image of the " Dark Ages" as devoid of learning.

    Another recommended reading is Altasrif from Albucasis, Spain, 11th century ( " Collection") a work used by university surgeons in Europe until the time of William Harvey.

    Nice collection of mixed text parts (with some carefully left out texts), proving exactly nothing.....
    Obviously
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 19, 2008 at 02:54 PM.

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    Ringeck's Avatar Lauded by his conquests
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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Stop feeding the sad troll.
    -Client of ThiudareiksGunthigg-

    tabacila speaks a sad truth:
    Well I guess fan boys aren't creatures meant to be fenced in. They roam free like the wild summer wind...

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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post

    Thought control in the 12th century:

    -John of Salisbury, Historia Pontificalis, trans. Marjorie Chibnall (Edinburgh and London, Thomas Nelson & Sons Ltd., and New York, Oxford University Press, Inc., 1956), pp. 15-27 passim.
    My, how dreadful! A religion controlling the interpretation of its own doctrine! Calamity!

    And would this destruction of a book be anything like the burning of the history of Aulus Cremutius Cordus by the aediles in AD 25? How about the buring of books of Egyptian alchemy and Christian texts by Diocletian in AD 292 and 303? Or is it only "thought control" and therefore evidence of historical naughtiness when it's Medieval people doing it?

    Eyewitness accounts of Europeans in Jerusalem (12th century)
    Well, some carefully selected accounts, choosing the ones where Usamah's prejudices most closely conform to your own. But, strangely, you chose to leave out this one:

    "I have, however, witnessed a case of their medicine which was quite different from that.

    The king of the Franks bad for treasurer a knight named Bernard, who (may Allah's curse be upon him!) was one of the most accursed and wicked among the Franks. A horse kicked him in the leg, which was subsequently infected and which opened in fourteen different places. Every time one of these cuts would close in one place, another would open in ancther place. All this happened while I was praying for his perdition. Then came to him a Frankish physician and removed from the leg all the ointments which were on it and began to wash it with very strong vinegar. By this treatment all the cuts were healed and the man became well again. He was up again like a devil. Another case illustrating their curious medicine is the following: In Shayzar we had an artisan named abu-al-Fath, who had a boy whose neck was afflicted with scrofula. Every time a part of it would close, another part would open. This man happened to go to Antioch on business of his, accompanied by his son. A Frank noticed the boy and asked his father about him. Abu-al-Fath replied, "This is my son." The Frank said to him, 'Wilt thou swear by thy religion that if I prescribe to you a medicine which will cure thy boy, thou wilt charge nobody fees for prescribing it thyself? In that case, I shall prescribe to you a medicine which will cure the boy." The man took the oath and the Frank said:

    Take uncrushed leaves of glasswort, burn them, then soak the ashes in olive oil and sharp vinegar. Treat the scrofula with them until the spot on which it is growing is eaten up. Then take burnt lead, soak it in ghee butter and treat him with it. That will cure him.

    The father treated the boy accordingly, and the boy was cured. The sores closed and the boy returned to his normal condition of health.

    I have myself treated with this medicine many who were afflicted with such disease, and the treatment was successful in removing the cause of the complaint."


    Good Lord - he learned a treatment from the benighted barbarians of Medieval Europe! Could it be that he isn't as quick as some others to draw general conclusions from particular examples? :hmmm:

    500 years wasted? Yes, really.
    *YAWN*

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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiudareiksGunthigg View Post
    My, how dreadful! A religion controlling the interpretation of its own doctrine! Calamity!

    And would this destruction of a book be anything like the burning of the history of Aulus Cremutius Cordus by the aediles in AD 25?
    Cremutius' history was burned by offending an emperor, which absolutely was an unjust case of a man's speech being suppressed by arbitrary royalty. But you don't really want to go into comparison between free speech in the Roman Empire and the Middle Ages, that's really a shaky ground for you to stand on. Read Aristophanes making obscene fun of the most powerful Athenians of the day. Read some secondary literature on the subject: Criticism of Individuals in Roman Popular Comedy, where Roman emperors are made fun of all the time. There is a famous story where Avidius Cassius frequently called Marcus Aurelius a "philosophic woman" to his face. You really don't want to go here, as I was saying.

    How many books were burned in the Middle Ages? He was condemned not by just one arbitrary whim but by everybody in the whole community. And what was his crime exactly, thinking the thoughts the others didn't like? Define what John Of Salisbury means by "impious novelties" here. Can you imagine being accused and angrily accosted by people because you haven't been using words which they were accustomed to see? You're really going to defend this?



    Take uncrushed leaves of glasswort, burn them, then soak the ashes in olive oil and sharp vinegar. Treat the scrofula with them until the spot on which it is growing is eaten up. Then take burnt lead, soak it in ghee butter and treat him with it. That will cure him.
    I've seen this passage but didn't include it because it proves absolutely nothing. He got an arbitrary unscientific compound, wow. It's not a negative example but not a positive example either, so stands on neither side of the issue. If Usamah was taught a scientific method or how to empty an abscess properly, that would've definitely be something worth including; or I would've reconsidered Usamah's evaluation of the Franks. Instead he was shown how to chop a guy's leg off with an ax, and how to incise skin on a woman's forehead and peel it into the shape of a crucifix.


    Good Lord - he learned a treatment from the benighted barbarians of Medieval Europe! Could it be that he isn't as quick as some others to draw general conclusions from particular examples?
    He drew the general conclusions quite clearly:

    "In the Franks one sees but animals, possessing the virtues of courage and fighting but nothing else; just as animals have only the virtues of strength and carrying loads"
    Last edited by SigniferOne; November 19, 2008 at 04:36 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

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    Stalins Ghost's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    History is never wasted. It just happens.
    morecuriousthanbold.com

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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalins Ghost View Post
    History is never wasted. It just happens.
    When the skin on your forehead is peeled into a crucifix for doing nothing wrong, you'd probably say something different. I'd be fine if it was merited, but none of these people actually did anything wrong, they hurt nobody and committed no crime. Gilbert was guilty of thought crime, though. And the imbecilic woman whose forehead was cut up was guilty of being born in a barbaric area of the continent. Usamah did treat her humanely however, before the butchers got a hold of her.

    Cremutius' book was committed of thought crime by a whim of a single guy (and, really, loved for it by everyone else). Books were committed of thought crime in the middle ages by the whole community. By everybody. Why did Peter Abelard need to have his genitals torn off? What did he do wrong? Don't be so blaze about your evaluations. I'm sure you value of yours what Abelard lost of his.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; November 19, 2008 at 04:54 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  11. #11
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Let us see, for example Salerno remained remarkably free of clerical control.
    There are 12th century manuscripts used in school (copies of much earlier texts) revealing a concern for the practical, a characteristic of Salerno´s empiricism.
    We have a manuscript found at Breslau and it contains 35 treatises written in Salerno in the 11 and 12th centuries. The most famous deals with fevers and diseases, and here even epilepsy and psychoses were given somatic causes and treatments. (yes, in contrast to the mystical medicine taught throughout Europe at the time...)
    As we know, the Salernitian school influenced the development of the universities of Bologna/Padua/Naples/ and of course the university of Montpellier.
    Montpellier rivalized Salerno in its return to Western medicine based on Greek concepts, and also in its contribuitions to the development of medical education.
    We should not forget that Montpellier possessed a rabbinical school of Spanish origin, and in 1180 the authorization to admit Jews and Arabs was evidence of greater freedom from episcopal control than was found in other French schools. Still later, in 1220, continued the remarkable acceptance of non-Christian teachers and students (take a look to the statutes for the university, ordered by the papal legate Conrad in concert with the bishops of France)
    Another institution in France that retained great independence from Church and State was the College of St Côme, which concentrated in surgery.

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    Stalins Ghost's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    My point is, history does not simply just "waste" itself. So what if a time period is marked by significantly lower standards of living and the prevalance of violent, often uneducated actions? It's still part of who we are today, and thus, it's still every bit as useful as more historiographically optimistic periods.

    You can't blame the people of the Dark Ages for wasting time, since for the vast majority of the time, their society simply couldn't allow for them to do anything about it. Regardless, like I say, it's part of who we have developed into today.
    morecuriousthanbold.com

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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    And the imbecilic woman whose forehead was cut up was guilty of being born in a barbaric area of the continent. Usamah did treat her humanely however, before the butchers got a hold of her.
    Usamah wouldn't have been any less effective at treating her.

    For you see, he was relaying a story from his family doctor, not a personal anecdote.

    While you do have some point with excluding Usamah's description of one effective folk-cure he knew, as it's not exactly a beacon of Western scholarship, I'd have to point out that quack doctors were everywhere, including the Middle East. At the same time, Usamah was writing at the end of his long life, and was aiming for a collection of stories designed to teach the reader proper action and thought. So though unclear, there is still a level of biased storytelling going on here, and it's hard to separate fact from fiction.

    1) That said, there are a few points that are raised from these stories. Regarding the mad Dr. Frank-enstein (laugh, damnit!), it seems strange that the Franks of that castle requested the use of Usamah's physician when the already had one. If it was a matter of him being a quack, then why was he allowed to overturn the real doctor's work and authority?

    2) The sheltered Frank fresh-off-the-boat... is he really so different from any other unworldly man unaccustomed to other habits and cultures?

    3) While hilarious, the story about the Frank, his wife, and the adulterer is a little suspect - it's highly unlikely Usama was an eyewitness to any such event (unless he was the adulterer himself, ho ho) and very likely he picked up a bit of gossip channeled through the standard bias-goggles when it crossed from Frank to Syrian mouths.

    4) As this was relayed direct to Usama, he has no way of knowing whether this illness was fatal or curable. Euthanasia is hardly something I'd consider symptomatic of medical ignorance, especially if the patient was beyond hope.

    5) Sounds like local justice no longer practiced by the upper classes. It's not unheard of in Medieval Muslim society outside of urban life for peasants to practice harsh or ridiculous trial and punishment, especially since local imams were not all doctors in shari'ah and snuffed at by urbanite qadis and intellectual circles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    1) That said, there are a few points that are raised from these stories. Regarding the mad Dr. Frank-enstein (laugh, damnit!), it seems strange that the Franks of that castle requested the use of Usamah's physician when the already had one. If it was a matter of him being a quack, then why was he allowed to overturn the real doctor's work and authority?
    I know. It's not the doctor's quakishness that I object to. It's the authority which he wields in his society.

    2) The sheltered Frank fresh-off-the-boat... is he really so different from any other unworldly man unaccustomed to other habits and cultures?
    Surely yes, forcing and being so viciously belligerent at the first sight in a host country?

    3) While hilarious, the story about the Frank, his wife, and the adulterer is a little suspect - it's highly unlikely Usama was an eyewitness to any such event (unless he was the adulterer himself, ho ho) and very likely he picked up a bit of gossip channeled through the standard bias-goggles when it crossed from Frank to Syrian mouths.
    My personal view is that he was told it by the adulterer himself, but we're free to disagree. My overall point is it in no way conflicts with the impressions of the Franks gathered from other impressions.

    4) As this was relayed direct to Usama, he has no way of knowing whether this illness was fatal or curable.
    Neither did the priest. That's the whole point.

    5) Sounds like local justice no longer practiced by the upper classes. It's not unheard of in Medieval Muslim society outside of urban life
    Uhm, he's supposed to SINK if he's innocent? This isn't just local rough justice. The standards of evidence these men used mean that these men were lunatics.


    What of the story of Gilbert and the crime he committed of thinking?


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

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    Manoflooks's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    werent the dark ages OVER by the twelfth century?


    vry interesting about medieval times, though.
    Men plan.

    Fatelaughs.


    See my AAR, From Kingdom to Empire-An Ottoman AAR

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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    I know. It's not the doctor's quakishness that I object to. It's the authority which he wields in his society.
    Again, it begs the question of why Usamah's physician was sent for in the first place if this doctor had so much authority. And can we find in any Western source of similar Medieval surgeons having such authority in the face of such failure?

    Even a quack commanded much respect from the common folk - otherwise why would there be quack doctors in the first place?


    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne
    Surely yes, forcing and being so viciously belligerent at the first sight in a host country?
    We don't know enough to be a judge of character here. Who is he? Is he some young kid, an old man? Was he 'viciously belligerent' or just very traditionalist?

    It's weird to think of him as belligerent, especially since all he cared about was making Usamah face East instead of Southeast. If he wanted to, he would have tried to hurt him, or at least yell angrily like the mob did in another anecdote of Usamah's.



    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne
    My personal view is that he was told it by the adulterer himself, but we're free to disagree. My overall point is it in no way conflicts with the impressions of the Franks gathered from other impressions.
    Well, that'd be hard to do - there is only one impression Usamah has about the Franks.

    What is the impression, would you say, that this story gives us? For Usamah, that answer depended greatly on the principles of a Beduoin noble.


    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne
    Neither did the priest. That's the whole point.
    I think that's stretching it, really. It's clear that this was the point Usamah wanted to make, but as neither him nor the lord relaying the story are trained doctors, it's just as likely that the doctor knew very well what he was doing, and knew he could do nothing for the patient.


    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne
    Uhm, he's supposed to SINK if he's innocent? This isn't just local rough justice. The standards of evidence these men used mean that these men were lunatics.
    The common peasant and nomad were hardly the most intelligible people around, even now this holds true. As enlightened Middle Eastern medicine was, it was still limited to the learned - the rest of the population was little better than their European counterparts, and only the code of law in cities separated urbanites from country peasants.


    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne
    What of the story of Gilbert and the crime he committed of thinking?
    I'm not too keen on church politics myself. However, it's the Catholic Church, and not the scientific community. What was discussed was a matter of theology, and the only real wrong I can see here was not against Gilbert, but Peter they-crusaded-on-my-balls Abelard.

  17. #17
    Ringeck's Avatar Lauded by his conquests
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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    I've seen this passage but didn't include it because it proves absolutely nothing. He got an arbitrary unscientific compound, wow. It's not a negative example but not a positive example either, so stands on neither side of the issue. If Usamah was taught a scientific method or how to empty an abscess properly, that would've definitely be something worth including; or I would've reconsidered Usamah's evaluation of the Franks. Instead he was shown how to chop a guy's leg off with an ax, and how to incise skin on a woman's forehead and peel it into the shape of a crucifix.
    You didn't include the primary account of a source, but preferred a secondary (or rather, tertiary, Usamah is repeating what Tabith told his uncle) account because it fitted your views better? Good historianship, troll.

    Reilgious sacrifices, cures and prayer were a feature of premodern (and early modern medicine). Western physicians, muslim physicians, and for that matter roman physicians all believed that (the) God(s) could influence reality.

    In 1249 the the Ayyubid Al-Malik as-Salih, sultan of all Egypt, died after being unsuccessfully treated for an abscess by - surprise, surprise - amputation. Before antibiotics, amputation was one of the ways to treat abscesses when "folk cures" (i.e. poultices) failed. It, alongside the poultices, are in several western and arabic books on surgery from the same period.

    But of course, this is not going to change your position, because no matter how much evidence is presented, you are going to keep on with your broken record act for all your entire life, like the good little dogmatic you have repeatedly proven yourself to be.
    Last edited by Ringeck; November 20, 2008 at 09:36 AM.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Cremutius' history was burned by offending an emperor, which absolutely was an unjust case of a man's speech being suppressed by arbitrary royalty.
    Er, yup. It's still "thought control" if someone's book gets burned because it annoyed an Emperor. Just as much as if it annoyed a bishop's sense of what is or isn't sound doctrine.

    But you don't really want to go into comparison between free speech in the Roman Empire and the Middle Ages, that's really a shaky ground for you to stand on.
    You sure about that? Every time we get these grand pronouncements from you about the Middle Ages we explore them further and find, in fact, that it's just that you are profoundly ignorant of the Medieval period and it's your erroneous perceptions that are the problem.

    Read Aristophanes making obscene fun of the most powerful Athenians of the day. Read some secondary literature on the subject: Criticism of Individuals in Roman Popular Comedy, where Roman emperors are made fun of all the time. There is a famous story where Avidius Cassius frequently called Marcus Aurelius a "philosophic woman" to his face. You really don't want to go here, as I was saying.
    Given that, unlike in Rome, there was no single authority in Medieval Europe, Medieval culture is rich with lampoons of Popes, Bishops, Kings, Barons, clergy, lords, burgers and anyone and anything you care to mention. Yet again, your profound and deliberate ignorance of the period has you making stupid assertions that anyone with the faintest whiff of understanding of the Medieval world will instantly recognise as total nonsense.

    How many books were burned in the Middle Ages?
    How many were burned in the Classical Era? Diocletian seemed rather keen on burning books that were "wrong". So were Augustus and Tiberius. BUt let me guess - that was somehow different ...

    He was condemned not by just one arbitrary whim but by everybody in the whole community.
    Bollocks. Can't you read? He wasn't "condemned" at all. He was accused and found innocent. And the "whole community"? WTF? Virtually no-one in Paris would have had a clue about this obscure theological quibbling over some words in a passage on a fine point of theology.

    And what was his crime exactly, thinking the thoughts the others didn't like? Define what John Of Salisbury means by "impious novelties" here.
    Well, religions are all about things that are "true" and things that aren't. So when religious types find things that are claimed to be "true" but which they feel aren't, they get upset. And when books contain these things and are being held up as saying religiously "true" things but are deemed to be "false", sometimes authorities destroy those books to keep them from being confused with the "true" ones. Here, try this example:

    After [Augustus] finally had assumed the office of pontifex maximus .... he collected whatever prophetic writings of Greek or Latin origin were in circulation anonymously or under the names of authors of little repute, and burned more than two thousand of them, retaining only the Sibylline books and making a choice even among those.
    (Suetonius, Augustus, 31)

    So here we have some religious books which were deemed "true" and others that were deemed "false" and were destroyed. As far as I can see the authors or keepers of the latter were not given the opportunity to defend their books, as Gilbert of Poitiers was, but I'm sure that's somehow more evidence of the wonderfulness of the Romans and the badness of the Medieval period. Or something.

    Can you imagine being accused and angrily accosted by people because you haven't been using words which they were accustomed to see? You're really going to defend this?
    Since you're the one with this quaint, Eighteenth Century periwigged idea of history as something which needs to be morally "judged" and therefore "defended", I'll leave that sort of nonsense up to you. John of Salisbury - writing at the end of the Twelfth Century - notes that Gilbert was accused in a time when the language of the newer philosophical works coming into Europe from Spain etc were still not known to theologians like Suger and Bernard as they were to logicians like Gilbert and Peter Abelard. In describing how Gilbert was found innocent of any doctrinal error, he notes that part of the the reason he was accused in the first place was that this language was at this stage not known. And he notes that it is "now" (ie in his time) commonplace.

    In other words, Gilbert seemed to be saying radical things when he was actually just saying things in a new way.

    Speaking of ignorance of the period, we also get this gem:

    Why did Peter Abelard need to have his genitals torn off?
    What an excellent question. Here's some homework for you Siggy - go and actually do some research on that question and come back and tell us what point of doctrine, science, thought or intellectual marvellousness led to poor Abelard getting castrated.

    Or come back and explain to everyone how, yet again, you've bungled things so badly that your posts should be routinely be met with howls of laughter.

    Over to you Siggy.

  19. #19
    Henry of Grosmont's Avatar Clockwork Angel
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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Quote Originally Posted by Odovacar View Post
    Nice collection of mixed text parts (with some carefully left out texts), proving exactly nothing.....
    Is this a petition?

  20. #20
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Mental contents of mind in the Middle Ages

    Quote Originally Posted by Manoflooks View Post
    werent the dark ages OVER by the twelfth century?
    More exactly, the early middle ages.
    Earlier.
    Petrucelli wrote: " Western Europe emerged from the "Dark Ages" about the year 1000 in a spirit of enthusiasm, optimism and cultural unity difficult for us to understand today, given our knowledge of the horrors, plagues, famine, war, and instability .....but in the year 1000 the future appeared bright. French culture...progressively gave forth a model upon which European civilization was to be patterned, while the Mediterranean world was in temporary disarray.."

    And we should not forget that even before the 10/11 centuries, Latin civilization persisted (although at times forced to go underground). Although the intellectual impact of Arabic science on Western Europe did not become significant before the 10/11 centuries, a common characteristic of many of the germanic tribes (in Italy, Spain, Gaul) was their acceptance of the cultural and intellectual of the peoples they had conquered.
    For example, during the fifth to the seventh centuries the germanic peoples who had conquered the north perimeter of the Western empire adapted the Roman system of jurisprudence (please someone correct me if I am wrong) to the development of practical codes regulating personal interactions within their communities- and, this is interesting - issues of public health and concern with physicians were prime in all those codes. The physicians, at the time, were probably still exclusively non-clerical. (later, for reasons not entirely clear, nonclerical physicians almost ceased to exist). For example, hospitals under nonclerical administration existed in the 6th century at Lyons and Merida.

    But its true that other germanic peoples, occupying the lands to the north of the (former) empire had no contact with with the Roman law or Roman medicine. There, the vestiges of Roman civilization almost evaporated, and the belief in supernatural forces as cause of diseases prevailed.

    But a major exception to this return to a folk medicine (exorcisms+ use of healing plants) in Northern Europe is found in the British Isles, where the Irish monks developed a tradition of independence, while maintaining a firm contact with the monastic communities of (both) Italy and the East. Later these monks introduced Latin civilization to large numbers of Franks and Teutons who had no direct contact with the peoples of Mediterranean.

    Chris Butler wrote:

    Traditionally historians have described the centuries following Rome’s fall as a barbaric and chaotic period known as the Dark Ages. However, recent historical research shows a much more gradual transition to the Middle Ages, especially in the Western Mediterranean where Roman influence was more deeply rooted and contact continued with the Eastern Roman (AKA Byzantine) Empire………Historians have revised their traditional view of a sudden collapse of civilization in Western Europe during the early Middle Ages, seeing instead a gradual transition to medieval civilization. This was especially true for the areas surrounding the Mediterranean that were reclaimed by the Byzantines or were ruled by tribes strongly influenced by extended contact with Rome before taking over. However, this period was a mixed bag, showing signs of continuity with the Roman Empire in some ways, but decline or change in others…
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 20, 2008 at 07:32 AM.

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