Still a W.I.P. Anyone with a suggested change or anyone seeing a glaring mistake or a minor one or wonder why 'unit a' is weaker than 'unit b', please post your ideas and opinions. Once we get this sorted correctly and historically then LT can get these guys done. Cavalry to follow after the infantry units are done
I checked out what historical sources I could and formed and overall 'plan' for the barbarian factions factions:
CELTIC FACTIONS
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I have arranged the Celtic infantry units in such a manner that the player will be forced to eventually field the heavy spearmen, swordsmen, heroes, champions, fanatics, and other higher end units to 'break' the lines of their enemies with their high charge values. 1 volley should be the rule of thumb for the higher end units as historically, they were all about the melee and it is what they excelled in. Skirmishers, light troops, and other lower end units can have plenty of javelins of course. A balance must be struck by the Celtic player by using the their devastating charge upon a section of the enemy line while at the same time fielding enough lower end troops to keep the enemy away and from surrounding and flanking their army.
Arverni will have the better cavalry; Belgae will have the best infantry; the Boii will be the balance of the two.
Non Celtic players facing the Celtic factions as enemies better make sure their troops can truly defend against this charge or field enough javelin/pila/arrow units to kill as many Celts as they can. Once the Celtic charge hits your formation it should not be a simple matter of pressing 'guard mode' and idling waiting for the Celts to run away. The charge shouldn't be underestimated.
CIMBRI
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The Cimbri are arranged to field better lower end spearmen and more spearmen than the Celts. An unarmored cimbri spearmen should, overall, best his Celtic opponent while the higher end Celtic units can, overall, best their Germanic counterparts. Therefore, the Cimbric player might have to use more of a tactical approach to winning. His spearmen are high quality compared to others and his higher end units, while a step blow the Celtic higher end units, can still charge and 'break' lines though not as easily. The Germanic berserker units will be a great asset to the Cimbric player and, unlike the Celts, the Germanic warriors were recorded to use javelins, frameae, and other weapons very frequently so the vast majority of Cimbric units should have more than a couple volleys.
If you are facing the Cimbri in battle, make sure you watch out for their spearmen and the amount of javelins they can throw. You will loose your cavalry easily as these are not levy quality barbarians despite their appearance.
GETAI
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
If the Celts rely upon the initial furious charge and the Cimbri are great spearmen and javelin users, then the Getai are the balance between the two. Historically they had no single strong point, but neither did they have a weakness. The falxmen have the potential to slice their way through anything other faction can throw at them, and their nearness to the Greeks gives them some phalanx influenced units and their proximity with the steppe tribes gives them some great horse and horse archer units.
If you face the Getai, their falxmen should be the biggest fear. If Romans got whipped and had to redesign their armor to cope, then the player shouldn't have an easy time with them either. The Getai may be the most powerful barbarian faction due to the mix of fighting styles they can bring to battle.
GALLAECIANS
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With this faction, one battle tactic comes to mind instantly. Skirmish and guerrilla warfare! I placed these guys on a pedestal when it comes to resistance and skirmish abilities versus overwhelming, highly organized forces sent against them...including both Romans and Carthaginians. Their assimilation of Celtic technology and their overall 'friendship' with the Celtiberians gives them the advantages of strong Celtic armed melee units and fast moving deadly skirmishers.
greek heavy peltast - cimbri elite skirmisher - (both units unarmored)
greek levy pikemen - bithynian levy phalangites - cretan levy hoplites - cimbri spearman
cherusci light spearman - chatti spearman (Germanic spearmen are typically above average unarmored/light spearmen units compared to those of other factions - arverni elite skirmisher (armored)- boii elite skirmisher (armored)- britonic elite skirmisher (unarmored but Britons are traditional skirmishers)- scythian royal infantry (armored archer)
ROMAN AUXILA: cohors i scythica - cohors ix parthorum - cohors ii thracia - cohors iii aegyptia - cohors iv hispanorum - cohors vii dalmatia - cohors v gallorum - cohors viii belgae - cohors i batavorum - cohors x italia - scythian thureophoroi - iberian scutarii - thureophoroi - carthaginian thureophoroi - agrianian infantry - aetolian thureophoroi - pergamon thureophoroi - pontic thureophoroi - spartan thureophoroi - persian sparabara - judean infantry
polybian republic legion - allied republic legion - roman early praetorian/roman early praetorian first - roman late praetorian/roman late praetorian first
roman evocatii - lucani pedites extraordinarii - samnite pedites extraordinarii
belgae infantry (These are the Belgic heavy spearmen. Leather armor, not chain)
EARLY LEGIONS: legio i germanica/legio i germanica first - legio ii augusta/ legio ii augusta first - legio iii gallica/legio iii gallica first - legio iii augusta/ legio iii augusta first - legio v alaudae/legio v alaudae first - legio vi ferrata/legio vi ferrata first - legio vii cpfidelis/legio vii cpfidelis first - legio viii augusta/legio viii augusta first - legio ix hispana/legio ix hispana first - legio x gemina pia/legio x gemina pia first - legio xi cpfidelis/legio xi cpfidelis first - legio xiii gemina/legio xiii gemina first
IMPERIAL LEGIONS: legio i minervia/legio i minervia first - legio i adiutrix/ legio i adiutrix first - legio iii cyrenaica/legio iii cyrenaica first - legio xxi rapax/legio xxi rapax first - legioiv flavia felix/legioiv flavia felix first - legio xvi flavia firma/ legio xvi flavia firma first - legio xv apollinaris/legio xv apollinaris first - legio v macedonica/legio v macedonica first - legio iv scythica/legio iv scythica first - legio x fretensis/legio x fretensis first - legio xxii deiotariana/ legio xxii deiotariana first - legio xii fulminata/legio xii fulminata first - legio vi victrix/legio vi victrix first - legio xiv gemina martia victrix/legio xiv gemina martia victrix first - legio xx valeria victrix/legio xx valeria victrix first - legio xxii primigenia/legio xxii primigenia first
roman triarii - allied triarii - ptolemaic kleruchoi agema
BARB HEAVY SPEARMEN: celtic heavy spearman - massilian heavy spearman - trocmi heavy spearmen - arverni heavy spearman - boii infantry (these are the Boian Heavy Spearmen) - cimbri infantry (These are the Cimbri heavy spearmen) - comati hoplite - bosporan heavy infantry
celtiberian spearman - thraikan chosen pezoi - arevaci spearman - late libyan spearman (all 3 units armored, performed well against Romans historically) - kentronakan spearmen
BARB HEAVY SWORDSMEN: tectosages heavy swordsmen - celtic heavy swordsmen - arverni heavy swordsmen - boii hvy swordsmen - insubres infantry - iberian elite scutarii - lusitanian elite scutarii - cimbri hvy swordsmen
belgae hvy swordsmen (these are the Eburones warriors. Slighty better melee that other hvy swordsmen) - cimbri foot noble
FANATICS/BERZERKERS: (These units are high charge/attack units and without armor do not fatigue/tire as easy. Have high morale, frightens enemy).
naked fanatics - tolistoboii naked fanatics - bear warrior (two-handed club) - germanic heavy axemen (two-handed axe)
belgae champion - thraikan elite falxmen - achaian elite phalangites - agema elite phalangite - argyraspides - seleucid royal hypaspistai - ptolemaic epilektoi basilikon agema - armenian governor - spartan generals bodyguard - greek governor - carthaginian governor - roman procounsul - roman governor - praetor vicarius - spartan promachoi
carthaginian sacred band - spartan heavy phalangites
seleucid thorakitai argyraspides - pergamon thorakitai argyraspides (plenty of armor and defense, but must get tired pretty fast wearing all that weight)
*******armazi guard: No picture so i do not know where they might fit
Last edited by Mulattothrasher; November 28, 2008 at 01:05 PM.
Well cryptic replies like that doesn't help either of us much If you've a good argument that Roman archers were overall equal/better than steppe and eastern archers, I'm all ears...
Well cryptic replies like that doesn't help either of us much If you've a good argument that Roman archers were overall equal/better than steppe and eastern archers, I'm all ears...
my point is that they aren't "roman" at all - they're syrians, fighting with their native bows, but simply given a gladius, armour, and that sense of esprit-du-corps that comes as part of being an auxiliary cohort in the Roman army. the romanization is in their organization, not their actual shooting ability. they aren't "better" than eastern archers, they ARE eastern archers.
also, i'd like most of the auxiliary infantry to have VERY similar stats, perhaps with the exception of the Batavians, because they were considered elite.
also, the evocati need to be better than both of the pedites extraordinarii units - they're a post-Marian unit of retired legionnary veterans (i.e. men in their 40s and 50s), and so would be better equipped and have VASTLY more experience than the premarian pedites.
actually, since the auxilia are gonna have similar stats to the legionnaires (indeed, why shouldn't they - they were trained and equipped to similar standard, and rebel auxilia even managed to give legions a run for their money (c.f. Batavian Revolt).
also, Brythonic slingers better than Rhodian or Belearic slingers? on what basis? those two units were the elite slingers of the ancient world.
and i'd like to point out that the antesignani are lightly armed legionnaires, so their stats should reflect that.
i think that's it... sorry about the ranting.
'Ecce, Roma Surrectum!' Beta Tester and Historian
Under the proud patronage of MarcusTullius
Great work so far.
Probably a bit of tweaking required though.
1) We had a discussion about Spartan heavy phalangites being as good as if not better than Seleucid argyraspides etc on the basis of their training, discipline, morale and so on.
2) I understand the thing about naked fanatics / berzerk being high in attack, but I can't see how we can have them as elite units. Although I can see it's difficult to give a really well ordered thing when there are 4 "strength" parameters to look at - attack, defence skill, armour, shield....plus of course morale
I like the factional descriptions. They give a very good overall feel for things.
Last edited by tone; November 17, 2008 at 12:18 AM.
Under patronage of Spirit of Rob; Patron of Century X, Pacco, Cherryfunk, Leif Erikson.
This is a really difficult bit of work to do!!!! Thanks MT for taking this on!
I think you've done a fantastic job and compressing into one dimension what is really in 4.
The other point worth making is that for each faction we do need to have some differences between recruitable units to create an order. So for example on one line we have:
but there does need to be a difference between the Gallaeci elite and the Ambakaro as both will be recruitable from the same barracks, although I guess the Ambakaro are more localised to Lusitania. Which should be stronger? I would say the Gallaeci as they have the chainmail and of course they're our chosen faction.
Under patronage of Spirit of Rob; Patron of Century X, Pacco, Cherryfunk, Leif Erikson.
Although you could equally well argue why bother to bring reinforcements from home if the AOR units are strong....I suspect you'll need to use them anyway once your armies start taking a bit of a beating
Under patronage of Spirit of Rob; Patron of Century X, Pacco, Cherryfunk, Leif Erikson.
1) We had a discussion about Spartan heavy phalangites being as good as if not better than Seleucid argyraspides etc on the basis of their training, discipline, morale and so on.
2) I understand the thing about naked fanatics / berzerk being high in attack, but I can't see how we can have them as elite units. Although I can see it's difficult to give a really well ordered thing when there are 4 "strength" parameters to look at - attack, defence skill, armour, shield....plus of course morale
I like the factional descriptions. They give a very good overall feel for things.
No problem moving the Spartans up to or higher than the argyraspides level (I had thought the agoge system and it's overall rigid requirements were in a big decline or something by our time period).
The naked fanatics are not meant to be overly elite. Their high charge and high attack is what I'm using to place them, not to mention no armor means fatigue should occur after armored opponents get tired thus they should, if stats allow, be able to go the distance longer than, say, a soldier in the legion or other heavily armored opponent.
my point is that they aren't "roman" at all - they're syrians, fighting with their native bows, but simply given a gladius, armour, and that sense of esprit-du-corps that comes as part of being an auxiliary cohort in the Roman army. the romanization is in their organization, not their actual shooting ability. they aren't "better" than eastern archers, they ARE eastern archers
Point taken. I can move them up but then again, chainmail must hinder some of the fluidity or firing the bow I would think, especially when compared to the other archers who are completely free of any encumbrance. This is the main factor I considered when placing them, but they could probably melee better due to this chainmail however. Any ideas?
also, i'd like most of the auxiliary infantry to have VERY similar stats, perhaps with the exception of the Batavians, because they were considered elite.
also, the evocati need to be better than both of the pedites extraordinarii units - they're a post-Marian unit of retired legionnary veterans (i.e. men in their 40s and 50s), and so would be better equipped and have VASTLY more experience than the premarian pedites.
and i'd like to point out that the antesignani are lightly armed legionnaires, so their stats should reflect that.
I do not mind moving them around. The reason you gave behind the Batavian auxilia being a better overall auxiliary unit is great; you gave me a historic situation where they went head to head with the Legions and did rather well. Can you do the same for the others (antesignani, evocatii, etc...) or do such example exist?
also, Brythonic slingers better than Rhodian or Belearic slingers? on what basis? those two units were the elite slingers of the ancient world
The Brythonic slingers have a shield with them so if they are argued to be lesser slingers (although slinging is a traditional Brythonic military art) they do two things working for them:
-They all carry shields, unlike the Rhodian and Balearic slingers.
-They come from a warrior culture so they would no doubt be able to melee sufficiently, probably a bit better than most other slingers.
They all should balance out overall thus the overall equal status for these 3 slinger units who, by the way, are the best in the game.
but there does need to be a difference between the Gallaeci elite and the Ambakaro as both will be recruitable from the same barracks, although I guess the Ambakaro are more localised to Lusitania. Which should be stronger? I would say the Gallaeci as they have the chainmail and of course they're our chosen faction.
Hmm, good idea....I think if Dvk has the Gallaeci setup to be a migratory faction (Celts, Cimbri) who bring their family wherever they go, then the Gallaeci elite should be the weaker guy since he'll be found all over. This would encourage the player to take the time to recruit the Ambakaro and send them to the far flung corners of the Gallaecian empire. However, if the Lusitania are a more sedentary faction, then I believe the Ambakaro would be stronger still since these were the Iberian chief/king bodyguards who would, upon the death of their king/chief, fight to the death against each other for the honor joining their fallen chief in the afterlife and for the shame of being alive while their sworn leader has fallen. Then again, Ambakaro have studded leather while the Gallaeci elite has chainmail. I'll take a second look and see where I can split these up at...
Moved elite city hoplite much much higher (they are elite, duh!)
Split the marines off of the elite city hoplites and moved them above Roman early legions, but below late legions. In between might be a better spot? :hmmm:
bellovaci infantry, wolf warriors, bastarnae (falx user), and thraikan falxman all moved higher up above the early legions, but less than Imperial legions
Although the Cimbri/ Teutones bumped heads with the Boii and Belgae and then , by mutual agreement left each other alone, everything I have come across reports that the Germanni scared the bejeepers out of their Celtic/Gallic cousins. "The Gauls said that often when they had encountered the Germans, they had not been able to endure even the expression on their faces or the glare of their eyes.” J Caesar.
The Batavian Infantry I thought was highly recruited by the Romans for their abilities. Should be higher?
I'm a little nervous about having two of the top four units shieldless, two handed fighters. Unless they will have unit sizes comparable IE if the naked fanatics have 60 per unit then the axe and bear have the same.
The Cim Noble was the 'creme de la creme', the Prince, he surrounded himself with the strongest and fleetest who fought for him. He , I assume, is a Captain unit ? Or are we using the priestess only for that ? If not raise him, or the Cim heavy sword, a level equal to arverni .
Cu mândrie, under the Patronage of leif_erikson
There is no disease I spit on more than treachery.
The Celts vs. Germans thing I tried to walk the delicate line with and without a bias. Recall, too, that Caesar wrote that in time past the Gauls dominated the Germans across the Rhine, while by 50 B.C. or so the Germans had reversed this and started dominating the Gauls.
The Celts had the technological edge all throughout their history and no other Europeans were ever more brave and fearless and ready to fight regardless of anything or anyone. The Germans were more methodical, I suppose, because a spear can only do so much so they had to come up with ways to try and overcome say, a chainmailed Celtic warrior, who can't be hurt too easy by a spear. Therefore, I gave the Cimbri better spearmen who perform closer to medium infantry units (seeing they have fewer metal weapons) while the Celtic light spearmen perform as normal light spearmen. With the nobles we should recognize that the Celtic tribes would always be able to field more chainmailed and sword wielders (at least historically) than the Cimbri who would not be able to always come up and have access to such metal. Thus, the Cimbri upper end warriors are just a step below the Celtic champions to reflect this. However, I can redo the Cimbri Noble and find a better place for him becasue he is indeed an elite unit...
So, when a Celtic/Gallic army and a Cimbri/Germanic army meet, the Germans will have better 'troops of the line' in their variety of spearmen while the Celts will have the edge in their armored units. The naked Celtic fanatic units are equals to the Cimbri berserker units. Both give that same shock charge that can attempt to 'break' the enemy line and frighten their infantry.
If the stats can reflect the overall historical 'vision' for the barbarian factions then they will be a blast to play. The many flavors of fighting they employed such as devastating charges, swordsmansip, berserker, fast skirmishers, noble champions, terrifying chariots, spearmen by the horde, naked warriors, etc...it will do the barbarians very proud. There can finally be a distinctive variety to each barbarian faction and for barbarian players that cater to a certain style, they should find their fix.
With what group should the Batavians go with you think?
So, when a Celtic/Gallic army and a Cimbri/Germanic army meet, the Germans will have better 'troops of the line' in their variety of spearmen while the Celts will have the edge in their armored units. The naked Celtic fanatic units are equals to the Cimbri berserker units. Both give that same shock charge that can attempt to 'break' the enemy line and frighten their infantry.
Agreed. I have seen what the bear warriors do to cavalry.
If the stats can reflect the overall historical 'vision' for the barbarian factions then they will be a blast to play. The many flavors of fighting they employed such as devastating charges, swordsmansip, berserker, fast skirmishers, noble champions, terrifying chariots, spearmen by the horde, naked warriors, etc...it will do the barbarians very proud. There can finally be a distinctive variety to each barbarian faction and for barbarian players that cater to a certain style, they should find their fix.
Historically all we get is second hand info unfortunately. But I feel more comfortable with the set up after mulling it over some more.
With what group should the Batavians go with you think?
Are you / we saying they are weaker or equal to the auxilia ?
Cu mândrie, under the Patronage of leif_erikson
There is no disease I spit on more than treachery.
RS2 units from weakest to strongest
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If you've a good argument that Roman archers were overall equal/better than steppe and eastern archers, I'm all ears...
Originally Posted by Mulattothrasher
Will be a W.I.P.
