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  1. #1
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Fluorescent bulb follies

    Does anybody know if Congress has plans to correct the mess that they have created with this absolutely silly legislation?

    Fluorescent bulb follies

    How many persons does it take to change a light bulb? Four hundred, if the people in question are members of the United States Congress. Four hundred is the number of representatives and senators who voted last December to ban incandescent light bulbs.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Full awareness of this idiocy has not really manifested itself in the public consciousness yet. When it does, there will be an outrage. Beginning in 2012, the manufacture and sale of incandescent light bulbs, starting with the 100-watt bulb, will become illegal. Instead of paying less than 20 cents for a standard incandescent bulb, we will all be forced to purchase compact fluorescent lights (CFLs) for about $3 each or more.

    I'm a frugal person. Like other sensible people, I'm interested in saving energy. But I'm skeptical of the exaggerated claims made for CFLs. When these devices were first introduced several years ago, I bought one, anxious to reap the benefits of the claimed energy savings. I was amazed to find that my new 10,000-hour light bulb burned out in a week. The replacement CFL lasted for three months.

    Much of the advertising copy we have been sold on CFLs contains exaggerated and misleading claims. The fine print is that the average lifetime is not 10,000 hours, but "up to" 10,000 hours. In many applications, the lifetime of a CFL and estimated energy savings are significantly lower than we have been led to believe. For a compact fluorescent bulb to achieve the claimed efficiency, it has to be burned continuously for long periods. If a CFL is left on for only 5-minute periods, it will burn out just as fast as an incandescent bulb. To avoid short cycling, the U.S. Energy Star program advises consumers to leave compact fluorescents on for at least 15 minutes.

    This brings up some interesting questions. What procedure should I follow when I have to go into my bedroom closet for 30 seconds? Should I stay in the closet for 15 minutes, just so the light bulb won't burn out early? Do I have to stay in the bathroom for 15 minutes every time there? What about other lighting applications with short cycles, such as outdoor motion detectors or lights on automatic garage doors? What are the energy savings, if any, of using CFLs in real-life applications instead of idealized laboratory conditions? What sort of moron mandates that people have to use CFLs in applications they are unsuited for?

    It is true that most of the energy utilized by an incandescent bulb goes into heat, not light. But has anyone considered that most of the U.S. is in a temperate climate zone? During a heating month, the heat produced by an incandescent bulb is not wasted, but contributes toward household heating. For most winter months, incandescent bulbs thus achieve an energy efficiency of 100 percent.

    There are other problems with CFLs. As most people know, they contain toxic mercury and cannot be thrown into the trash, but have to be recycled. CFLs become dimmer as they age, and thus again will not perform as advertised. The quality of light from fluorescent bulbs is inferior to incandescent. Standard CFLs won't operate at low temperatures and are thus unsuitable for many outdoor applications.

    Given that the upcoming ban is on manufacture, not possession or use, it would seem the rational person has only one option: to hoard standard incandescent bulbs while they are still available. Unused light bulbs can be stored indefinitely without degradation. At a unit price of less than 20 cents each, it is eminently practical for most persons to lay in a lifetime supply before the 2012 ban takes effect.

    In an ideal world, where the government had some respect for the intelligence of its citizens, consumers would be allowed to make rational decisions about using lighting devices. People would use CFLs in installations they were suited for, indoor applications involving long-use cycles. And we would still be allowed to use 100-watt incandescent bulbs in our bedroom closets, where large amounts of light are needed for short periods. This is known as free-market economics. In the 20th century it came be recognized as a superior system almost everywhere, even in communist China.

    There is one benefit to the light-bulb ban: it serves as a useful voting guide for the coming fall elections. In November, the 86 senators and 314 representatives who judged their constituents as not intelligent enough to choose the correct light bulb will undergo a referendum on their own judgment.

    David Deming is a geophysicist, an adjunct scholar with the National Center for Policy Analysis, and associate professor of Arts and Sciences at the University of Oklahoma.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    FFFFFFFF......

    FFFFFF......

    Really? Seriously? Oh wow. Every single congressman who voted for this needs to step down.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    and like every other technology they'll probably get cheaper and better as time goes on, especially now that this legislation has been passed and demand rises exponentially.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    I think the general trend will be that energy prices will increase and CPL production costs will decrease and the quality will increase, so the shortened lifespan due to short cycle use will be rather moot. Overall CFLs are a no-brainer. I have replaced my entire place with them as my incondesents burned out, for roughly $20 more than conventional bulbs (I actually won a pair in a engineering design contest too). I know it cut my electricity bill by at least $7 bucks a month, and the first ones I put in have lasted over a year now.

    Thats a 320% annual return on my investment, so I have no complaints.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    Does this include heating applications (such as breeder lights used by farmers, zookeepers, etc), where thermal energy "waste" is a desired byproduct?
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

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  6. #6
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    Does anybody know if Congress has plans to correct the mess that they have created with this absolutely silly legislation?
    And a commentary lacking any citations make this silly?

    First – one could also argue once scale production is achieved after no CFL bulb is available.

    Second –

    t is true that most of the energy utilized by an incandescent bulb goes into heat, not light. But has anyone considered that most of the U.S. is in a temperate climate zone? During a heating month, the heat produced by an incandescent bulb is not wasted, but contributes toward household heating. For most winter months, incandescent bulbs thus achieve an energy efficiency of 100 percent.
    This is a bit of sophism.

    As I recall the government of Quebec did conclude it was about a wash between the bulbs due to heat issue – but while much of the USA is not south Florida most of it is not Quebec either. In any case the bigger issue is where the population is and where it is going. Places like North Dakota and Michigan have been loosing population for decades to the south. So for this point to be valid one really needs to figure out if the net heat gain for incandescent bulbs in the winter is greater than the cost of cooling the heat produced by incandescent bulbs in the summer, or year round in places like LA or Houston. Moreover are incandescent bulbs efficient heat sources? So you loose heat form your lights it entirely possible to assert your high efficacy heater is a better heat source…
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    No matter what getting 1 Joule of heat energy from electricity is less efficient and more costly then getting 1 Joule out of heating oil. Most power plants are about 40% efficient in converting heat into energy (not sure about wind/solar/hydro) and there is ~20% loss in transmitting the electricity to your house.

    So when a power plant burns coal you are only getting ~30% of that heat into your house.

    There are some energy requirements to get heating oil to your house, but ~80% of what you burn in your furnace goes to heating your house. Thats why natural gas, or heating oil furnaces are commonplace.

    Now, the extra cost of the CFL might make this a wash in Quebec, but the vast majority of the US is south of Quebec, and again the price of energy is likely to rise while the price of CFL's is likely to drop.
    Last edited by Sphere; November 14, 2008 at 02:32 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    Illegal lightbulbs? What? That's a bit much if you ask me. You can't force people to become granola munching hippies.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    The lightbulbs wouldn't be illegal, just manufacturing/importing them. It sounds like the plan is to phase this in overtime starting with 100W bulbs in 2012.

  10. #10
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    Some falsities I found in the article:

    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    During a heating month, the heat produced by an incandescent bulb is not wasted, but contributes toward household heating. For most winter months, incandescent bulbs thus achieve an energy efficiency of 100 percent.
    Heating your house with electricity is incredibly energy inefficient, because loads of energy is wasted generating and transporting electricity.

    This is also why it's so expensive that no sane person heats his entire house with electric heaters.

    There are other problems with CFLs. As most people know, they contain toxic mercury and cannot be thrown into the trash, but have to be recycled.
    Also not true.

    Although they do contain toxic chemicals, they can be thrown in the regular trash, just like batteries.
    I do it all the time.

    ---

    But overall I agree with the article.
    The EU is pushing for a similar ban, but I am against it.

    If more energy efficient light bulbs are really superior, people will buy them anyways.

    IMO the government should fund light bulb research instead, especially LED has huge potentials in both power saving, esthetics, and durability.

    ps: phasing out 100W bulbs is just silly. I used to use a 100W bulb as my main light.
    Recently my supermarket has stopped selling 100W bulbs, so I now use two 60W bulbs instead.
    Last edited by Erik; November 14, 2008 at 03:08 PM.



  11. #11

    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    LED has huge potentials in both power saving, esthetics, and durability.
    Definitely, if they can make LED's cheaper and improve the range of their light spectrum then I will be all over those suckers.
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  12. #12
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    You are all missing the point. Congress passes a law outlawing an item because it is bad. Incandescent bulbs bad -- CFLs good. Just like private autos bad -- mass transit good. Transfats bad -- tofu good. Coal bad -- Windmills good. Congress is absolutely incapabale of assuming consumers will do the right action when they can be mother with a one shoe fits all approach.

    Someone made the critique that there are no citations -- perhaps as an engineer, he knows what he was stating in the commentary?

    CFLs are horribly inefficient for most home applications at current prices. This is not due to mass production -- hint -- both are already mass produced. I walk into the bedroom and flip a light on and off for 15 seconds. The refrigerator opens and closes. Security lighting outside that pops on and off as people pass. Dimmer switches control and conserve better than cfl's.

    In my modest home all appliances are off and not on standby, all general lighting is on dimmer switches, all background lighing is already lower than 100 watts, etc. Other than ripping out the structure -- there is no place in my home as it exists for an appriopriate cfl installation.

    When engineers first looked at improving energy consumption within the home -- electricity consumption from lighting was not considered a significant source for energy savings. It still is not. The home is not like the office where lighting needs to be on nearly 24 hours 7 days a week. THe home is filled with devices consuming more electric power and savings are still clearly available -- your computer is on and resting but going thru more power than a light bulb. The compressors and motors in refrigeration units. The stove, microwave, and other appliances always ready to go with monitors running.

    In short -- why should this be a government issue? Why should government assume that I will not purchase a cfl when appropriate? Why should government tell me what to do in my small home when they are burning 100 or 1000 times the power consumption in their homes? Hypocrite one and all.
    Last edited by Viking Prince; November 14, 2008 at 05:03 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    I think the best solution is to use a combination of CFL's and LED's. LED's are much more expensive, but can be dimmed, can be made very small and still be incrediably efficient.

    I agree with the sentiment surrounding the government outright banning a product. In general this shouldn't be done. A better solution is usually to set criteria that industry must meet, and allow private innovation to reach that criteria. This is what is done in cars and power-plant emissions. However, there really aren't any incondesent designs that come close to CFL's performance, and incondesent technology has been around for over a hundred years. So setting the bar high would essentially ban incondesents anyways.

  14. #14
    fatsheep's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    I think CFLs are a lot better but I do agree that outlawing incandescent light bulbs is silly. Customers will choose the better light bulb by themselves. However, they could have done much worse... like outlawing chocolate.
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  15. #15
    Hunter Makoy's Avatar We got 2 words for ya..
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    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    by 2012 i doubt there will be anywhere near a purchasing power parity between incandescent lights and CFL. i use CFL in several areas but they do have alot of limitations. on recently have they even come out with some to fit inside lamps. the savings really do become insignificant when they cost around 10x and much, and the combined energy savings and length doesn't even begin to touch 10x of an incandescent light bulb. plus the fact that CFLs are even more dangerous because of the toxins in them.

    but wat mainly bothers me is that my governemtn is trying to tell me wat kind of ing light builb to buy!

    its a light bulb for Christs sake! did they all turn into Californians on the day they passed this or wat?
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  16. #16
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    Who here actually thinks it's Congress' job to tell us what lightbulbs to use?
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  17. #17
    fatsheep's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Who here actually thinks it's Congress' job to tell us what lightbulbs to use?
    Congress apparently
    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh
    I still think Obama will lose. That or america has gotten so dumb we deserve him.
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  18. #18
    Hunter Makoy's Avatar We got 2 words for ya..
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    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Who here actually thinks it's Congress' job to tell us what lightbulbs to use?
    u know u can't be trusted to make those kinds of decisions by urself. Incandescent light builbs are wat are ruining this planet!
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  19. #19
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    I think I am finally forming a mob. Pitch forks and torches! Off to Congress. Take that 'Pitchfork' Pat Buchanan!

    Congress shall make no laws to establish a CFL.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Fluorescent bulb follies

    It will probably be easy to buy them off the internet anyway.
    "If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance." - George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

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