View Poll Results: The Kurdish people should...

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  • ...have their independent state (Kurdistan).

    90 50.28%
  • ...have their independent regional governments in inhabitated states (autonomy).

    49 27.37%
  • ...be assimilated to inhabitated states (potential oppression).

    24 13.41%
  • I don't know / I abstain.

    16 8.94%
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Thread: Free Kurdistan?

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  1. #1

    Icon1 Free Kurdistan?

    Should Kurdistan be an independent state? Why? Shouldn't be? Why? Somewhere between? Why?

    POTENTIAL FLAME-WAR ALERT: Please try to discuss the topic in a rational, mature manner.

    Some facts that may come handy in the debate.

    Map of Kurdish inhabitated areas:




    Kurds (کورد)

    SaladinAhmad XaniJalal TalabaniFeleknas Uca
    Total population19 to 37 million
    Regions with significant populations
    Southwest Asia
    Turkey11.4 to 14.4 million[1][2][3]
    Iran4.8 to 6.6 million[4]
    Iraq4 to 6 million[5]
    Syria0.6 to 2 million[6]

    Asia/Caucasus
    Afghanistan200,000[7]
    Azerbaijan150,000[7]
    Israel100,000[8]
    Lebanon80,000[7]


    Modern period

    In the 16th century, the Kurdish-inhabited areas were split between Safavid Iran and the Ottoman Empire after prolonged wars. The first important division of Kurdistan occurred in the aftermath of the Battle of Chaldiran in 1514. This division was formalized in the Treaty of Zuhab in 1639.[20] Before World War I, most Kurds lived within the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire in the province of Kurdistan. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the Allies agreed and planned to create several countries within its former boundaries. Originally Kurdistan, along with Armenia, was to be one of them, according to the never-ratified Treaty of Sčvres. However, the reconquest of these areas by Kemal Atatürk and other pressing issues caused the Allies to accept the renegotiated Treaty of Lausanne, accepting the border of the modern Republic of Turkey and leaving the Kurds without a self-ruled region. Other Kurdish areas were assigned to the new British and French mandated states of Iraq and Syria under both treaties.
    The Kurdish delegation made a proposal at the San Francisco Peace Conference in 1945, showing the geographical extent of Kurdistan as claimed by the Kurds. This proposal encompasses an area extending from the Mediterranean shores near Adana to the shores of the Persian Gulf near Bushehr, and it includes the Lur inhabited areas of southern Zagros.[21][22]
    Since World War I, Kurdistan has been divided between several states, in each of which Kurds are minorities. At the end of the First Gulf War, the Allies established a safe haven in northern Iraq. Amid the withdrawal of Iraqi forces from three northern provinces, Iraqi Kurdistan emerged as an autonomous entity inside Iraq, with its own local government and parliament in 1992.

    Conflict and controversy

    Main article: Kurds in Turkey
    The incorporation into Turkey of the Kurdish-inhabited regions of eastern Anatolia was opposed by many Kurds, and has resulted in a long-running separatist conflict in which thousands of lives have been lost. The region saw several major Kurdish rebellions including; the Koēkiri Rebellion of 1920, the Sheikh Said Rebellion in 1924, the Republic of Ararat in 1927, and the Dersim Rebellion in 1937. These were forcefully put down by the Turkish authorities and the region was declared a closed military area from which foreigners were banned between 1925 and 1965.

    The city of Batman, eastern Turkey


    In 1983, the Kurdish provinces were placed under martial law in response to the activities of the militant separarist Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).[32] An extremely violent guerrilla war took place through the rest of the 1980s and into the 1990s, in which much of the countryside was evacuated, thousands of Kurdish-populated villages were destroyed and numerous extrajudicial summary executions were carried out by both sides.[33] More than 37,000 people were killed in the violence and hundreds of thousands more were forced to leave their homes.[34] The situation in the region has since eased following the capture of the PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan in 1999 and the introduction of a greater degree of official tolerance for Kurdish cultural activities, encouraged by the European Union. However, some political violence is still ongoing and the Turkish-Iraqi border region remains tense.[35]


    Iran




    There are around 6.5 million Kurds in Iran. Discrimination against mainly Sunni Kurds in Shi’a Iran is occasionally more complex than elsewhere because of the added religious dimension, and the fact that Kurds have often been more actively involved in resistance against the regime than other groups. State motives for repression of Kurds are, therefore, often based on ‘security’ as much as other factors.

    With the world’s scrutiny of Iran focussed on the nuclear issue, these security forces have stepped up attempts to ensure the ‘integrity of the republic’ by policing in an ever-harsher manner exemplified by the torturing to death in 2006 of a 17 year old Kurdish civilian in Sanadaj police station. Incidences of executions, extrajudicial killings and ‘disappearances’ have increased while human rights defenders and NGOs have been subject to ongoing harassment.

    Iraq




    There are around 5.5 million Kurds in Iraq. The fall from power of Saddam Hussein in Iraq in 2003 has presented a new opportunity for the Kurds of Iraq to tackle the discrimination they have faced in the past, although Saddam’s recent flawed trial and subsequent execution mean he will never face justice for the 182,000 Kurds killed in Anfal in 1988. True justice for the victims of Anfal requires proper care and redress for the thousands of families who continue to suffer the psychological, social, economic and political effects of the genocidal campaign.

    Politically, the two main Kurdish parties have united to form a single Kurdistan Regional Government – a significant step towards stability and progress. However, continuing insurgency and violence continue to threaten this success, with particularly fierce disputes over the future status of Kirkuk prompting threats of military intervention from Turkey. Ultimately, such tension diverts attention and resources into security and away from human rights and civil issues.
    Syria




    Human rights abuses against Syria’s million-strong Kurdish population are serious and ongoing. The refusal of the State to reinstate citizenship to 360,000 Kurds who were stripped of it in 1962 is among the most pressing problems.

    The continuing state of emergency, now in place for 41 years, has also allowed the government to enforce a harsh security regime. Detention without trial, torture, and curbs on freedom of expression are particularly serious, with signatories of documents calling for greater rights arrested and imprisoned. Campaigners for better relations with Lebanon are also persecuted, as are human rights and NGO workers.

    Turkey




    Turkey continues to systematically abuse the human rights of its 15 million-strong Kurdish population. Violence and discrimination are regularly used against Kurds despite hopes that the EU accession process might encourage Turkey to improve their situation.

    Major abuses by Turkey include torture and the employment of armed forces against civilians. The state generally refuses to account for fatalities and injuries it causes – this trend has been highlighted by the recent overturning of jail sentences for military officers implicated in the bombing of a Kurdish bookshop.

    Freedom of expression has been particularly targeted, with many prosecutions brought against those expressing peaceful opinions. Language rights are also restricted, with technical requirements in the curriculum being introduced to make the task of teaching in Kurdish more difficult in the private schools where it is allowed.

    More worrying are the conditions set out in new anti-terror legislation such as the wide definition of ‘terrorist’, the permission given to officers to use weapons ‘without hesitation’ and the decision to allow suspects to be held ‘incommunicado’ for 24 hours. These regulations give the Turkish state wide scope to arrest, prosecute or shoot ‘undesirables’ and remain within the law. Although the legislation does not meet international human rights standards, the EU has failed to condemn it.

    In fact, Turkey’s progress on human rights issues has become largely overshadowed in the EU accession process by European domestic concerns such as the ratification of the proposed constitution and efforts to prevent Cyprus derailing the process. Combined with the desire of many EU officials to stress the potential benefits of Turkish membership to a sceptical public, this lack of focus seriously diminishes the value of the EU accession process to human rights in Turkey.

    Efforts to improve this situation include attempts to increase the representation of the Kurds within the EU accession process, notably through the EU-Turkey Civic Commission of which the KHRP is a founder member. Through conferences held at the European Parliament the EUTCC aims to produce recommendations which, if adopted, would help promote the peaceful, democratic future of all citizens of Turkey within the EU.
    The Caucasus





    There are an estimated 75,000 Kurds (1.8% of population) in the Republic of Armenia. Whilst the capital, Yerevan, has been considered a centre for Kurdish culture and the arts, conflict with neighbouring Azerbaijan has seen the expulsion of Muslim Kurds and abuses against the small indigenous Kurdish population caught up in the fighting between Armenia and Azerbaijan over the disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh.

    There are an estimated 200,000 Kurds (2.8% of population) in the Republic of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan's treatment of its Kurdish population is largely affected by its conflict over the disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh.

    There are estimated 40,000 Kurds (0.9% of population) in the Republic of Georgia.
    Last edited by Aldgarkalaughskel; November 13, 2008 at 12:13 PM.

  2. #2
    Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    Yes, but only within Iraq borders. Dont do harm to allready existing nations, and wtf create sunitistan and shiitistan in the rest of Iraq. Simplistic and not going to happen, I know. Still they deserve their own country.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  3. #3
    Bleda's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    Yes, but only within Iraq borders. Dont do harm to allready existing nations, and wtf create sunitistan and shiitistan in the rest of Iraq. Simplistic and not going to happen, I know. Still they deserve their own country.
    Even if it were within present Iraqi boarders only, the Turks would be against it because of the nasty precedent it would set. Iraq is an existing nation though. Its gaining its sovereignty province by province. I say put it up to referendum when the time is right, so all of the Iraqis could vote on the matter. One should be particularly careful when carving up borders in that desert.


  4. #4

    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    Independent state!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    Iraq should be divided into 2: Kurdistan and Iraq.


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

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  6. #6
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    Yes, but only within Iraq borders. Dont do harm to allready existing nations, and wtf create sunitistan and shiitistan in the rest of Iraq. Simplistic and not going to happen, I know. Still they deserve their own country.
    Wouldn't work and will lead to major war. Jordanians and Saudis will move to "protect" the Sunnis, and the Iranians to "protect" the Shi'ites and the Turks wouldn't like an independent Kurdistan which they feel will support the PKK.

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    Iraq should be divided into 2: Kurdistan and Iraq.
    See above.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  7. #7
    Erlinggra's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    Although an independent Kurdistan is a nice ideological thought it’s not very likely to happen. None of the countries in the region will willingly give up landmass; the only realistic option is a semi independent region within Iraq.

  8. #8
    cfmonkey45's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    To those of you who say that Kurdistan should be a free-state, you're just asking for a civil war and an ethnic cleansing.


    If it were up to me, what I would do would be to Federate Iraq, granting regional governments to the Sunni, the Shi'ia, and the Kurds that would work much in the same way as the States do in the United States. Hopefully, that would ease a lot of tensions and would prevent civil wars.

  9. #9
    Otsman's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    the kurds however have the most organized government and military in Iraq now, and adore the U.S. the only problem would be turkey, but nothing a little american intimidation can't handle. i like your idea cfmonkey, but you have to keep in minf the Iran factor, that giving such power to a small shia state, you might as well hand it over to iran on a silver platter




  10. #10
    Lawrence of Arabia's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    If you think the Iraqis are going to give up the Kirkuk oilfields, you're crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empi Rapper View Post
    Go on Farnan, go and help those despicable thugs you call our soldiers to kill some of the poorest people on the planet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empi Rapper View Post
    Don't you realize that it is a good thing that so many British soldiers have already been killed as punishment for the invasion?


  11. #11
    Aetius's Avatar Vae victis
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    Kurds won't ever get that huge mass of land, but they should get northern Iraq. It will also create a extremely freindly ally in the middle east to the United States, but it could become like Isreal and Kuwait, whereas we have to defend it when it gets invaded...

    They also have lots of oil...
    Blut und Boden

  12. #12

    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    As if dividing Arabia into petty countries wasn't bad enough, a Kurdistan would be a catastrophe.

    I agree with Lawrence of Arabia and cfmonkey45. Provincial autonomy is the best bet for Iraqi Kurds but as for those in Turkey and Iran, they should assimilate. After all, Iran has significant Baloch and Azeri minorities, giving land to Kurds would only set the precedent for other groups asking for more automony and ultimately, independence.

    Lastly, PKK represents a very leftish viewpoint and a Kurdish state would see a perputual struggle between traditional Kurds and their secular counterparts. It will soon convert into a proxy war.

    An independent Kurdistan is a disastrous idea.
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    In an Ideal world...... I think all those involved nations, representants of the different believes and tribes, and even the controversial orgs like the PKK should get around the table and sort this out.

    Turkey could actually gain also advantage from this as the Kurd situation is a major stepping-stone towards an EU entry. There is virtually no other possible solution for Turkey to get to a piece agreement with the PKK.

    1.I know its probablly to late as Iraq is indeed a sovereign nation, but I dont see the country becomming anything after the GI“s leave.
    2.The Shiite and Sunii are no longer standing in eachothers way so much.
    3.The rest of Iraq has enough oil for all btw.

    Remember they should all have their saying in this, so a possible war between those new nations can only put blame on them for fuzzing up.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  14. #14

    Icon1 Re: Free Kurdistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pashtun Mujahideen Commander View Post
    As if dividing Arabia into petty countries wasn't bad enough, a Kurdistan would be a catastrophe.

    I agree with Lawrence of Arabia and cfmonkey45. Provincial autonomy is the best bet for Iraqi Kurds but as for those in Turkey and Iran, they should assimilate.
    Do you deny the right of self-determination from the Kurdish people? :hmmm:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pashtun Mujahideen Commander View Post
    An independent Kurdistan is a disastrous idea.
    An independent Iraq has been proved to be a disastrous idea, too, moreover it was absolutely artificially created. Kurdistan would be solid at least ethnoculturally.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    Autonomy, creating another new state in this volatile reason would be like creating a second Israel: a source of unending problems for everyone involved. Turkey and Iran would likely team up to destroy any such state, which would only serve make the Middle East even more dangerous than it already is.

  16. #16
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    I voted for oppression.




  17. #17
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    What also could very well cause major problems, is that a N-Iraq Kurdistan is potentially very rich and will be a resort for many foreign Kurds. Remember only 6 million Kurds live there now, and only Turkey has another 14 millions, so how can a country solve such massiv possible and very likely immigartion.
    :hmmm:reallllly
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  18. #18
    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    I should imagine that once the US/Coalition eventually pulls out of Iraq and if Iraq falls into all out civil war, then Turkey will move more determindly against the PKK in northern Iraq.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshireman View Post
    I should imagine that once the US/Coalition eventually pulls out of Iraq and if Iraq falls into all out civil war, then Turkey will move more determindly against the PKK in northern Iraq.
    Turkey is moving lots of troops into sound east anatolia and waiting for amarican troops to leave iraq....

  20. #20
    KaerMorhen's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Free Kurdistan?

    Wide autonomy within existing states. Turkey and Iraq shouldn't be territorialy harmed to keep the region in balance.

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