How can I possibly defeat the Timurids?

[Die Hard!]

Hello,

I've got a problem. I'm playing with The Holy Roman Empire on campaign level hard and battle very hard.

It's about turn 200 and I'm controlling about 90 regions.

The Timurids now have invaded with about 8 full armys. I've approached them with 10 full armys including good commanders.

But there is one problem; I can't possibly defeat them. They keep harrassing me with missle cavalry and when I approach them they run away like cowards. Then when I really get into a fight with them they're often even able to beat me. When they charge me with their cavalry my infantry routs straight away. They are just too strong and I can't possibly win. It doesn't matter what tactics I try they just can't be defeated or anything.

The only tactic I'm using right now is just attacking them and trying to kill as many as possible. Since I control 90 regions and they control 0, I'm able to replace lost units very fast and they can't replace at all. So I'm able to keep attacking them with big armys untill they get outnumbered.

But this is just going too slow. For every full army of me that gets defeated I kill about 250 of them max.

Can someone teach me how to defeat them?

Thx

[Silent Assassin]

1- Try to Ambush them between mountains.
2- Or try to attck them with 4 armies and make a sandwich with them
3- Or do as I do with the Mongols Wait for them in one of your cities with lost of archers (your best ones) and good defending infantry. Usually they go for Antioch like the Mongols do.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Use all cavalry armies. The HRE has access to crossbow cavalry and very powerful cavalry. A typical Timurid army has some heavy cavalry, HA's, archers and some infantry AND of course elephants. Your aim is to weaken the enemy and to kill their commanders. Don't expect to win but what ever happens kill their leaders. Expect some pretty exciting battles and enjoy.

[NobleNick]

Welcome to the forums, Die Hard!

...But there is one problem; I can't possibly defeat them....

Yes, you can.

...They are just too strong and I can't possibly win...

Yes, you can.

...It doesn't matter what tactics I try they just can't be defeated or anything...

Stop whining. Yes, you can defeat them. You are already started, with your massive economy, pumping out stacks to wear them down.

...They keep harrassing me with missle cavalry and when I approach them they run away like cowards...

Don't approach. Get attacked on the campaign map. That means they have to attack you on the battle map. Start spamming Pavise Crossbow. These guys get 12AP (armor piercing) attack, and 14 defense (+ upgrades). And their range of 160 outranges the HA range of 120. Park those Pavise xbows up on a hill, in loose formation, with skirmish mode = OFF, and with a few high morale units, like Forlorn Hope in front of them. The hill will give your ranged troops an even greater range differential over your opponent: Depending on the steepness of the hill, I would expect the "terrain adjusted" ranges to be something like 200 vs. 80.

I would use about 8 Pavise, with 8 Forlorn in front of them; and the rest cavalry (to take out siege equipment and catch routers). If you have a problem with elephant cannons or other artillery, counter with bombard, Grand bombard, basilisk, serpentine, or cannon. Remember to stay up on the hill, to give all your ranged weapons the advantage.

I can't imagine losing a fight, like this; but, even if you do, I guarantee that you will kill many, MANY more than 250

...Then when I really get into a fight with them they're often even able to beat me. When they charge me with their cavalry my infantry routs straight away...

Having a frontal screen of high morale troops (e.g. Forlorn Hope = base morale of 11) should stop the routing.

I hope that helps.

[Seigi]

I can't possibly defeat the Timurids in open battle, just suicide, the only thing you can do is wait for them in castle, weaken them, then attack in mass number against one stack at a time

[Warbuff]

You can eventually defeat them with numbers and the use of calvary, ranged troops and canon. You should be producing army after army.

[The Armchair General]

It's best to wait for them in cities/castles packed with missile troops.
Their cavalry advantage is nullified then

[Sodbuster]

You should buy the mercenary elephant armies in Saudi Arabia, buy the mercenary rocket launchers up in Russia, and each of your armies should have very good cannons of some sort. Park up on a hill as far away from their army as possible. Target their elephants with your artillery. Once a couple elephants have died the rest will run amok usually, and now the battle is all about killing good cavalry and crappy infantry. You should have some very good cavalry with high experience if you've conquered 80 cities. You'll need high experience units to compete with their full silver chevron cavalry. One on one, my gold chevron Chivalric Knights were able to take on their silver chevron heavy cavalry.

[Silent Assassin]

You should buy the mercenary elephant armies in Saudi Arabia, buy the mercenary rocket launchers up in Russia, and each of your armies should have very good cannons of some sort. Park up on a hill as far away from their army as possible. Target their elephants with your artillery. Once a couple elephants have died the rest will run amok usually, and now the battle is all about killing good cavalry and crappy infantry. You should have some very good cavalry with high experience if you've conquered 80 cities. You'll need high experience units to compete with their full silver chevron cavalry. One on one, my gold chevron Chivalric Knights were able to take on their silver chevron heavy cavalry.

the problem is you don't have the power of deciding where you will meet them.... And that is a real problem as on common standard ground you will get powned as they're Elephant units are alot more diciplined(SP) and have more experience than the Mercs that you will be able to recruit. So here I will have to disagree with you and I don't suggest your way of doing... Your way would be great if you could have the power to decide where to face them

Sorry

Rebel

[Morkonan]

Right now, I'm facing 8 full stacks hanging around Baghdad. When the first four/five stacks appeared, they bypassed Baghdad, held by the Egyptians, and headed for Mosul, held by the Mongols. They assaulted it and it immediately turned Rebel. Then, they voluntarily ended their siege of it and have been milling around the area, doing nothing. Now, their reinforcements have arrived and their still moving somewhat strangely but, at least they're at war with the Mongols. If I hadn't been beating up on the Mongols in the Middle East for the past few turns, it may be interesting to see them clash. However, they are certainly the dominant force in the area at the moment.

I don't know how I'm going to hold against them if they decide to attack. I'm currently reinforcing Aleppo, Damascus, Jerusalem, Gaza, Jedda and sending throw-away City units from Alexandria, Cairo and Dangolo in an effort to field a force that can help attrit their massive numbers.

But, my English forces in the Middle East are not prepared for this onslaught. I have some good units, Retinue Longbowman, Hospitalers and various good heavy infantry along with cannon. But, I think I'm going to lose several cities and possibly a couple of castles. I may be able to hold them at Gaza but, I'll probably have to enter the Field and fight them where they stand in order to do it.

I've been trying to increase my relations with them but it is slow going. They don't have any settlements yet so establishing trade relations is not an option. All I can do is give them a few thousand florins here and there. I am NOT about to give them a map yet. I don't want them armed with that information. (Not sure how the AI uses the Map or if it matters at all whether it bases decisions on info in traded maps.)

All in all, I have a bleak outlook in the Middle East concerning the Timurids. If worse comes to worse, I may have to concede the ME to the Timurids and try to hold them at Constantinople if they decide to move North. But, if I do that, I'll be doing it alone. I might have to try to call a Crusade and see if that helps deplete their numbers.

[Eusebius86]

I've been lucky enough to have them siege my outer cities and not just pass them. As Milan I've been able to spam Genoese crossbowmen in the cities and just slaughter them when they finally attack the city...

I've also had some luck with both assassins and the papacy. Several high ranking assassins can prey on their generals (I've cheated and saved before attempting an assassination), while a crusade can potentially rally other nations to your side. The problem is by this point in time in the game, their aren't too many other catholic factions left that are thriving...

As has been mentioned before, try to isolate stacks. There always seems to be a stack or two that wanders away from the others. Isolate these with 3 or 4 of your own full stacks. Get the fastest cavalry available to your faction, so that you can kill retreating units and not have to fight them again.

[Viking Prince Olaf]

Well my main problem is the mongols i take the cheater way out tho,.....
i usually play as western powers,because i like to recruit stacks of late
period heavy cavelry because their charge is 8 and usually u can add
like attack bonuses and partial plate add ons + tourney exp.so basically
i like to conquer the rich western lands like spain to poland and british isles
to gain money to make great whords like my one made entirely of
lancers,gendarmes,chivilric knights,french horse archers,and aventurier,
like a couple stacks and i mother freaking SLAUGHTERED!!the mongols
soo when i heard the first time the timurids were comin im like crap!!
and i made another whord except this time,....i got my ass kicked cuz of
the elephants so i recruited epert armoured sergants with everything
and after a couple heavy losses like half the unit they killed em.
if ur playin middle eastern though,finish off the profesional army then
get some nafftun and i swair they freaking rule at it man try it on custom
they kill em like their just peasents sooo yea also all this was just when
they came to my doorstep,cuz i tried to let the remaining mongols kill
em off cuz mongols are way better so i thought they would kill each other
out.

[Morkonan]

I've also had some luck with both assassins and the papacy. Several high ranking assassins can prey on their generals (I've cheated and saved before attempting an assassination), while a crusade can potentially rally other nations to your side. The problem is by this point in time in the game, their aren't too many other catholic factions left that are thriving...

My assassins in the area are top-notch and they still can't kill the current Timurid generals. I suspect that it's part of the event mechanic since the early Mongol hordes had highly resistant Generals as well. It wouldn't be a lot of fun to just kill off all their generals and watch them turn Rebel. (The Mongols still have resistant Generals even after they've been around a long time in my current game.)

As has been mentioned before, try to isolate stacks. There always seems to be a stack or two that wanders away from the others. Isolate these with 3 or 4 of your own full stacks. Get the fastest cavalry available to your faction, so that you can kill retreating units and not have to fight them again.

Good idea. Currently, they're moving en masse now. I did see one General take off North towards Russia but none of my spies has ever been able to locate him and I don't see any settlements under his command.

If I get the chance to take advantage of sniping a stack, I'll certainly do it.

As a matter of fact, I may just try to make that happen. I could, possibly, lure a good portion of his forces away and hope to pick-off the stragglers. Or, maybe wait until he sieges a city and see if he moves other stacks out of the area. Instead of contesting the siege and possibly facing multiple stacks, I might be able to hold some armies back and wait to pounce on something that gets too far away from his lines.

Thanks!

[Phunkracy]

Spawn Mounted Crossbowman or Gothic Knights. Army composed entirely of gothic knights can win against single timurid army, however killing it's general is NECCESSARY! It's the uebergeneral that gives them such insane stats. Once you attack Timurid army, charge with your army at enemy general, then only take care to take him off quickly. Same with mounted crossbows- they're devastating if used as cannon fodder, they massacre everything they shoot at, and are relatively cheap. Just remember to concentrate fire on a single unit.

[schockis]

My best tip is to use the terrain to your advantage, bridges and mountains are graet news for your archers If possible use stakes (almost cheating, but very effektive in sieges/at bridges). Lots of archers or cavalery and some defensive infantery in a good position you have chosen are your goal. The Timurids (and Mongols) are very agressive and will probably attck you again and again until you've killed 'em all.

[Sorkenlol]

Sorry if it's a bit off the topic, but what are the Timurids name in Stainless Steel? Would it be Khwarezmian Empire?

[Landtuber]

Hey all, first post, came here after slugging it out with the Timurids for a bit and wanting some advice.

First campaign play in Medieval Total War II, playing as England, VH/VH. Have dominated the Western half of known world (skipping Americas for now). First Mongol wave attacked quite a while ago, killed Russia, and hurt my armies in the field a LOT when I first found them, until I was able to adapt my heavy inf/archer strategy for their mobile armies. Still took a long time to push back, eventually killed them. Then I found out they come back again... That made me most unhappy...

Anyways, about the Timurids. When they first appeared, I actually had a very decent force in the area, and the amount of money I spent on building new armies was insane. Since they appeared just East of Kiev, I put large armies at the 4 river crossings on the Dnieper river, between Kiev and Smolensk, figuring I could hold them at the bridges. Problem: they didn't attack! They just moved around in a big clump between the 2 middle crossing points, and they did this for almost 15 turns. Eventually, I got tired of it and moved 10 full armies out to fight them (as a side note, my comp gets mad at me when I try to fight a battle with 3 timurid armies and 4 of my own, lol). Man, I thought the Mongols were bad. Even with full armies of cavalry and archers, with a bit of heavy infantry support, got raped. Every time. Eventually I just wore them down, pinching off an army or two at a time. They're almost beaten now, I'll probably only have to lose another 2-3 thousand men (groan).

All that was a lot of griping I know, just hated the Timurids so much. Now, I've read a lot of posts on this topic and others about Timurids, so what I'm wondering is this. On the open field, 1 army each, no crazy height/terrain advantages to either side, and assuming no stakes (I really regard them as cheating), has anyone been able to beat a Timurid army? I've been able to isolate one a couple of times, and tried one on one, but I just can't seem to do it. Any more tricks that haven't been posted above would be great! Never had this much trouble with any Total War game...

Sorry for long post, this stuff was really bugging me.

[Silent Assassin]

Welcome to the Forum friend and nice first post

[eisx]

I hate Mongolians and Timurids because their armies always stand side by side and I have to attack simultaneously 2 or 3 full stack armies. But there is a trick that I used against Timurids and I am sure it works for Mongolians too. Its application is limited because it works just for ambushed enemy.
The Mongs and Tims if the terrain is wooded always ambush. If an enemy army approaches and moves to the next area and the enemy’s power is weaker they will attack this army. You can use this in favour of your own. Move a single unit next to an ambushed army. It will attack. You can not retreat because the enemy army ambushed but on the battlefield during the battle you can (no loss). What is the situation then. There is an isolated Mongs or Tims army (advanced to the place of your bait unit) and can not retreat. Attack it with at least two or three full stack armies and you will win with acceptable loss. I called this trick “fishing”.
And two another advices for open field battles.
1. If you have 3 or 4 full stack armies (unexperienced units with a 2-3 star general)near by Mongs/Tims and like as Mongs/Tims do these armies are not isolated they never attack you. You just follow them like a pack of wolves and use your opportunities. They will make a mistake. (For example: There are always half stack armies among the Mongs/Tims armies. If this army is the last one in a row attack it with 3 or 4 armies and you can beat the reinforcements too. If you are lucky you can catch the reinforcement army before it would draw up their troops.
2. Weaken your enemy. Attack their army with long range missile troops (crossbows) or mobile horse archers. Deploy your troops near the exit point of the battlefield. If there is a hill, you are a lucky man. Do not move your army just wait. The Mongs horse archers will come. Fire them (aim the heavy ones) at least the main army is arrived and retreat (If the exit point is near you can do it quickly). You will lost the battle but probably you kill more enemies than your loss. Against Mongs or Tims it is not bad. After it you have to pay attention your army because it retreated so have no move point. To defend this isolated army (the next Mongs/Tims’s turn they can attack and your army can not retreat) stand 2 your another armies next to it.

[HordeOfDoom]

Most of the very few times I've managed to defeat the Timurids in open battle where I was on the offensive (defence is fairly easy as described here) is with full stacks of heavy cavalry. Including one victory with 20 family members. Elephants may be good, but they can't handle that kind of cavalry spam, and go down fairly quickly. Horse archers eventually run out of arrows too .