Take Kiev and Caffa early as Byzantines?

[Viking Prince]

Title says it all --

I was wondering about general opening strategies for the Byzantines

There seems to be the kill the Turks plan.

The other seems to be neuter Venice early plan.

What about holding and ally with the Turks, ally with the Hungarians, hold off Venice. Occasional 100fl per turn gifts to keep allies happy. Take Sophia, Smyrna, Rhodes, Caffa, and Kiev and then turtle until a faction attacks.

The typical settlement builds probably are pretty much the same. Build straight to Byzantine Infantry in Constantinople. Use Corinth for archers and artillery. Use Sophia for Horse Archers.

So has anyone actually gone to Kiev early and ignored the Middle East? Yes, I know there is a risk of Mongols plowing through -- the Kiev settlement need not be built up with lots of cash and it can be gifted to Hungary when and if the Mongols go north.

[tsar_adam]

I once did that when i luckily wiped the Turks out by taking one city (for some odd reason all there family members were in that one city). After that i pincered Europe and took all of Eastern Europe.

[Vince Noir]

hey, with the Byzantines the best method I would say is to eliminate the threat the turks pose as fast as you can, so try to get sofia (to stop any western attacks) and dont bother with durazzo since venice seems to be eager on taking it. Then perhaps try to get an alliance going with either venice or hungary (or both) early on when they are eager to give it. Following this, turn and focus on the turks, but dont eliminate them... capture iconium and caesaria and keep trebizond, then turn south into the holy land. also avoid capturing jerusalem at all costs. By keeping the turks alive (or rather dont finish them off) you will have a nice buffer for when the Mongols come and also try to get some sort of peace going with them once you have everything u want. Unless of course you want to take on the Mongols all by yourself!

After you've secured the eastern borders usually one of the western powers has already declared war so start reorganizing your forces whicle keeping enough troops in the east to feel safe from threats (usually a full stack of vardariotai does the trick). Dont keep a navy early on (maybe 1 ship to transport troops left and right) but depending on what enemies do (mainly sicilians and egyptians) maybe consider building up one sooner rather than later, but dont be overly concerned with it since you should have 5 cities/castles in the aegean sea (constantinople, nicea, smyrna, corinth and thessalonika) which means you can get 10 ships at least in a single turn if you decide you need them desperately.

When it comes to castles over towns dont go heavy on castles and only keep them around as blocking spots for enemy invations. Always convert corinth, cyprus, smyrna and trebizond into towns (corinth, cyprus and smyrna asap, trebizond a bit later depending on how the war with the turks goes). Also convert sofia into a town once youve captured bran from hungary and always keep caesaria and aleppo as forts and you can more than make do in the early stages of the game with mercenaries. Having more towns is very beneficial (as a rule of the thumb always convert coastal settlements into towns, even acre) since it gives LOADS of money to upgrade economy and military quickly while you can pump out elite units non stop and use mercenaries to fill any gaps/weaknesses.

hope this helps, let me know how u get on

[Viking Prince]

Well, I am looking for a "do not pick on the Turks" approach to the campaign. Thats why I am thinking of Kiev, Isasi, and Kaffa. Get into the mix with Poland as an ally of hungary and maybe stay at peace with Venice and the Turks.

[Mithrane]

If you want a different strategy than the traditionals of Turks, Venitians, or Hungarians, I suggest taking control of the Med. Sea. From there, there are three "different" options. Take the Holy Lands, Remove Egypt, or head to the West and take out either the Moors or Iberia.

Between these three, I suggest the Egyptians, and then moving both east and west, taking Africa and the Holy Lands. From there, you are positioned to abandon Byzantium if need be or pince the Turks out of existance.

Or, should you want to be very different, you could go for France or the British Isles.

Either way, though the Russia plan is sound in first light, it fails to gain the funds that such an expansive empire will require as most of the Steppes require HUGE sums and a lot of time to grow.

[Viking Prince]

No further into the steppes than Kiev. The desire is to support Hungary as an ally and keep the Turks viable when the Mongols come -- though they may head straight for Kiev and then the Byzantines will have their head handed to them. Of course, we are playing a game and we know the Mongols are coming. I ws just wanting to approach the issue in ignorant bliss.

[Huskerjuan]

All these strategies are really good! Maybe in my next Byzantine campaign I will use them. For me, the Byz campaign I'm on is only my second since getting the game (I dominated my first one with England) on Hard-Hard, no mods, no cheats.

I started using the Safety Turk method, allying with them and rushing to Sophia and Durrazo, knowing that Hungary and Venice would be rushing those as well. I then allied with both of them automatically, buying me some more time to consolidate. Then I went and took Bucharest and was planning on Black Sea domination, but Poland cut me off at the settlement east of Bran I don't remember the name. Venice also too Zagreb as well and The Turke took Anatolia, so I was now boxed in between Venice, Hungary, and Poland to the North and the Turks to the East.

So this is where I made a change in strategy. I quickly built up 2 navies, 1 for the Adriatic and 1 for the Agean, with 7 ships each. built up some small forces and took Rhodes,Crete, Crimea, Corsica and Scardina, converted them all to towns and turtled. I also decided to use Poland as a Northeastern buffer for the Mongles to compliment my Southeastern turkish buffer, and send diplomats to the rest of the map to ally/trade with everyone, which made corsica and scardinia cash cows!

After about 6 turns of taking Corsica (my last island conquest), Venice attacked Durazzo, so with an adequate force Sofia and Symrra(or however you spell it) to hold off the others, I laid all out war on Venice. Took quite a long time but finally took Ragusa and pushed for Zagreb, with some pretty epic battles to pair. Right about that time, Hungary (who had taken Vienna and Krakow as well) marched on Sofia. So I automatically pressed for peace with Venice, and pushed Hungary. I used this method for 3 more wars between Venice and Hungary; as soo as the peaceful power sent a force to me, I peaced with the other and pressed on the aggressor. Using this method, though expensive having to keep aadequate forces in multiple places, I was able to hold Venice in check while I conquered all of Hungary, gaining Bran, Budapest, Vienna, and Krakow, which allowed me to convert Sofia and Corinth into cities, both of which make big bank.

So, in a nutshell, this is my basic Byz strategy:

1. Rush Albania, Sofia, and Ionia, those 3 provinces will give you a good basic nation to grow with well placed castles.
1a. If Venice feels bold and hits you, rush Ragusa and take the eastern Adriatic coast. Benefits are 2 fold. One, It gives you a better placed castle for Venetian invasions, allowing Corinth to be converted earlier and two if gives you an nice long coastal province to put watch towers, giving you longer notice for an impending Venetian attack.
2a. Unlike other post, I suggest building a strong navy as early as possible. Though it might not be cost effective early on with rebel navies and warring states, take the hits and don't be afraid to ride the red US Congress style for a turn or 2. Strong navies will give you a edge in wars (Turks gave my Anatolia and Georgia without a single battle because I beat their brains in on the high seas durring the short lived "ten turn war"). They also get you ready to conquer the islands of the Mediterranean, allowing you to expand whilst keeping everyone happy at home, including your neighbors.

2. Set peace with your neighbors and advance northeast along the Black Sea coast until you run into another power.

3. Once your Black Sea advance is stopped, take ALL the islands in the med. Corsica and Scardinia will make mad money if you est trade with the Western Mediterranean states, and the earlier you take them, the faster that money tree grows.

4. Hold strong with Turkey, keep that alliance and a not too expensive but capable static-defensive force in Ionia in case they try a fast one on western Asia Minor.

5. Let Either Venice or Hungary attack, and be ready militarily. Once they do, push them hard and push them fast. As soon as the other begins an advance, not an attack, make peace with your warring state and send your forces to the other front. Then it's just rinse and repeat until you have conquered Eastern Europe.

Using this strategy, along with some military negotiations with HRE, 92 turns in I have a Byzantine Empire from the Caspian to the Baltic, I own all of the Balkans, Silesia, parts of Germany and Asia Minor, buffer states against Mongol and eventual Timurids on both sides of the Caspian Sea, weak northern factions with Denmark and HRE fighting for Germany and a crippled Venice providing the perfect gateway into Italy, or should I say the Sicilian/Papal Peninsula. Can't wait til the first crusade called against Constantinople!

[Viking Prince]

@Huskerjuan --- welcome to the forum. You only get one first post. Yours was a good one!

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I have just started my Byzantine campaign. Turns take me forever since I almost never autoresolve. Up to a massive turn 15 now.

I did my plan to domininate the Black Sea -- leaving the areas near the Turks and east of Kiev alone. I took the force at Constantinople by ship directly to the Isasi castle so I was first man on the scene. The Nicaea force headed to Jakka and then to Kiev. The Isasi force then joined to make the joint assault on Kiev.

I decided to not bother with Bucharest though. I was surprised the Hungarians did not grab this asap. The same with Durazo. The small rebel settlements help keep relations good since they are something to keep allies busy with. It seems after playing France that I always let the neighbors get their share of the rebels -- usually the smaller settlements with high and tougher garrisons to take out.

Seems like good cash flow at this point -- about 12000 per turn gross and 4000 per turn surplus for upgrades, recruiting, tribute (gifting a nominal 100 per turn to the Turks and Hungarians).

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I am finding a flood of merchants coming to spice and slaves. Better merchants than I can produce at this time. I have withdrawn the merchants and am waiting for opportunities to take out a lower level merchant to boost capability. I am thinking of using assasines to clear the areas though. Any ideas or comments on this?

[Viking Prince]

OK -- I thought I had seen everything that can happen in the early game, but this is too much.

The typical Crusade on Cairo is called and the good catholic factions are sending their armies on Crusade through the Byzantine Empire. Then Venice decides to attack Sophia and loses 2/3 of a stack attacking with mostly cavalry.

Milan attacks Nicaea with similar results.

I have lost my alliance with the Hungarians an all trade with the remaining catholic factions.

Then the Turks blast into the Smyrna region and take on the remains of Milan and then the Polish stack. It looks like I have just survived my first assault by the catholic world with the loyalty and help of my Turkish ally.

But not all is so good.

My fort within Venetian territory is about to be assaulted. My cavalry stack adjacent to the fort vaporizes -- literally. No trace, no combat, and now no family generals -- all gone and game over. What the.... ?????

Do not tell me there is a super stack of assassins on turn 25 -- I do not buy that. There seems to be no natural disaster -- at least no announcement of one. So what really happened? I mean other than my stupidity of having my royal line all in one stack.

Arrgghhh!!!

Now it is time for me to begin again. My plan with the Byzantines is to....

[Pinky333]

You will not stay at peace with them no matter what. What i did on my ehupy campaign was sailed right to smryna amd took it putting a foot hold in that area and then byz attacks me and i take constintople and all the way to sofia then being at war with vience hungary sicily i declared war on turks pushing in killing the turks and then pushing up to russia. So my point is go get keiv and push turks while at war with vince and hungary and when hungary is dead clamp poland

[Lord Feloric's Ambassador]

My Great Lord Feloric took a similar approach to the Byzantine campaign and came out successful. My Lord started by taking Greece. The resources from Greece allowed my Lord to open up a two front war against Hungary and Venice. This is the crunch time, Hungary and Venice won't go down easy, plus at the same time the other Catholic factions will send crusades your way. Luckily for you, my Lord developed a devious strategy for taking care of those pesky crusades.

First, block off the warp points with navies. Second, train an army of Orthodox Priests and send them to Rome. This may sound strange but the Priests will quickly convert Rome to a mostly Orthodox citiy. With an Orthodox populace living in Rome the Pope will be forced to expand northward, and the Catholic alliance will be broken. My Lord never had to see another crusade defile he lands again. This trick will allow you to concentrate on conquering Venice and Hungary quickly.

Once Hungary and Venice are out of comission you have many more options available to you. My Lord chose to open up a four front war. One army expanded out of Venice, one went north to Poland, one went east to conquer the Turks, and one started in Sicily and expanded northward. Eventually, though, my Lord had to open one front to face down the Mongols, and one to take care of the Holy Roman Empire.

The Great Lord Feloric hopes these tips are helpful.

[platinumkiller]

well if you don't plan on takeing the middle east it would of been wise to sell Nicea for some money to the turks and a alliance. but that means you would have to be ready for attack pretty much all the time for Constantinople

[Viking Prince]

well if you don't plan on takeing the middle east it would of been wise to sell Nicea for some money to the turks and a alliance. but that means you would have to be ready for attack pretty much all the time for Constantinople

I think there is plenty of territory for the Turks to take if they head into the mideast and up into the area north and west of the caspian. They do not need western anatolia -- that is Byzzie space !

The whole idea is for my loyal ally to take the rebel spaces and be a nice buffer against the great unknowns from the east and also to be strong enough to take on the Egyptians. This also means taking territory to be in conflict with these areas. If the alliance is going to hold -- and it will with modest tribute such as the catholic factions can give the Pope --- there is no need to also give up adjacant settlements.