Anedoctal Evidence of why there may be problems with Israeli-Palestinian Peace

[Farnan]

So I was in a group studying for my international relations test I took today. Part of the group was a foreign student from Israel (pretty cool, going to investigate a bit by talking to her to find if she has a boyfriend and what her name is...) but one thing she mentioned is that coming here she had a problem with the Palestinian student. She didn't like the fact that she did and she consciously fought it, but the fact is that was a problem in the beginning. Palestinian students probably feel the same towards Israelis.

My point is, having been that both people's have been at war for 60 years so far, isn't the hope of an instant peace and conciliation unrealistic? The negative attitudes can't instantly end.

[Boer]

That is true. How long has it been since slavery was ended in America? Yet, you still find people (black and white) who hate each other over that. True reconciliation (or what ever term you want) in Israel/Palestine will take several generations at least.

[Nikos]

True, Look at Greeks and Turks! We have been fighting since 1071. Will the hatred never end?

[Grof]

Once the Palestinians have a state where they can build homes and raise their kids and both sides end the violence than there is going to be peace but the the hate will go on. I honestly believe that the solution to this issue is as simple as creating a Palestinian state where Israel does not make the rules but that simple task has proven to be a difficult one for these 2 sides.

[humvee2800]

Well it would be simpler if every time Israel offered them a chance they did not reply with bombs and demand the whole pie.

[jankren]

Well it would be simpler if every time Israel offered them a chance they did not reply with bombs and demand the whole pie.

Who did not live up to the bargain on the Oslo Accords again?

True, Look at Greeks and Turks! We have been fighting since 1071. Will the hatred never end?

Lol, so funny.

[Bovril]

Well it would be simpler if every time Israel offered them a chance they did not reply with bombs and demand the whole pie.

This is sooooo true.



This chart shows that only 2-3 times as many Palestinian civilians have died since 2000 compared to Israeli civilians. Clearly since Israeli lives are worth at least 10 times as much as Palestinian lives, this means Israel is very much the victim.

And how could it be otherwise when Israel is occupied by the region's most powerful military and only nuclear power which has the full support of the world's only super power from whom it receives vast amopunts of political, economic and military aid. The onus is definately on the Palestinians to use their overwhelming and unrivaled power to make a solution work. How can the basically non-existant 'state' of Israel be expected to enforce any sort of solution under these conditions....
...hang on, did I get that the wrong way round?

[Alkarin]

since Israeli lives are worth at least 10 times as much as Palestinian lives, this means Israel is very much the victim.

ROFLLL

[Phileas Fogg]

Once the Palestinians have a state where they can build homes and raise their kids and both sides end the violence than there is going to be peace but the the hate will go on. I honestly believe that the solution to this issue is as simple as creating a Palestinian state where Israel does not make the rules but that simple task has proven to be a difficult one for these 2 sides.

What about Jordan as the Palestinian state? It has a Palestinian majority anyway.

[Bovril]

What about Jordan as the Palestinian state? It has a Palestinian majority anyway.

So what happens to the people living in the West Bank and Gaza strip? The Jordanians do not see themselves as Palestinians (they are actually pretty hostile to the Palestinian refugees inside Jordan, which at most make up 20-25% of the population), the idea of Jordan as 'the palestinian state' is a myth cooked up to disenfranchise the people of the west bank and gaza strip. Jordan is, and has been since its inception, simply the kingdom ruled by that branch of the Hashemite family. It has its own distinct culture and dialect. Traditionally the people of 'Tranns-Jordania' have wanted nothing to do with those living the other side of the river Jordan.

[Henry of Grosmont]

Israelis and Palestinians look the same?

For the gazillionth time - they are not.

Well.. of course they look different. One is made up of white Europeans, the other Semitic/Levantine Arabs.

Right. Then tell us, what about the native Jews? Or Jews from North Africa, Syria, Iraq, etc.?

As for the OQ, it's not that simple, you're right. Too much blood.

[Johnny Cash]

For the gazillionth time - they are not.

Right. Then tell us, what about the native Jews? Or Jews from North Africa, Syria, Iraq, etc.?

As for the OQ, it's not that simple, you're right. Too much blood.

I haven't a clue about the native Jews. I'm going to assume their not the pale, freckled redheads, blondes and blue/green eyed wonders running about that place though.

[Grof]

What about Jordan as the Palestinian state? It has a Palestinian majority anyway.

why would Jordan be made into a Palestinian state, they aren't the one that drove the Palestinians out of their homes.

[fieldmarshal]

why would Jordan be made into a Palestinian state, they aren't the one that drove the Palestinians out of their homes.

Wasn't Jordan occupying the west bank before the 6 day war?

[jankren]

Wasn't Jordan occupying the west bank before the 6 day war?

Yes, but not anymore. So now they cant be a Palestinian State.

[Bovril]

Wasn't Jordan occupying the west bank before the 6 day war?

Jordan was established inside its present borders at the end of the British Mandate in 1946, though it had been a de facto kingdom since the end of WW1. After the 48 war, Jordan ended up in control of the West Bank, which it oficially anexed in 1950. This is the sole leg that people who claim Jordan is the 'palestinian state' have to stand on. One might as well claim that Egypt or Israel are 'the Palestinian state' since both annexed/controlled areas of Palestine. In 1967 Jordan lost controll of the West Bank to Israel after the 6 day war. In 1988 Jordan officially renounced all claims on the West Bank and currently regards the PLO as the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people, hence their support for the PLO's governmental arm, the Palestinian National Authority.

[roy34543]

This chart shows that only 2-3 times as many Palestinian civilians have died since 2000 compared to Israeli civilians. Clearly since Israeli lives are worth at least 10 times as much as Palestinian lives, this means Israel is very much the victim

I think its difficult to argue that Israelis dont find their own lives 10 times as valuable and their fellow Israelis lives 10 times more valuable then the palestinians. I think that often there is however an issue where the palestinians (and indeed, if i may say so, a large portion of arabs in general) consider their lives or the lives of other palestinians expedint for a general cause.
Its also very difficult to argue that the situation would somehow be better if 8000 Israelis died compared to 10 palestinians, arguing casualty figures is quite moronic, it could have turned out very different if Israelis just sat in front of bulldozers with palestinians in them waiting to die, or if the palestinians got their hands on biological weapons of mass destruction (they were very close several times) or if the palestinians had very simply been better organzied and less fractured. Casualty figures might make a statement, but theyre very vague and they dont really argue morality.
btw where do the Israeli palestinian civilians get counted? On the Israeli side or palestinian? Because theyre 17% of the population and generally less fearful then Israelis in going around palestinian areas. they do die quite often in suicide bombings, palestinian cullings (The palestinians killed a ton of palestinian "collaborators with Israel" in the second intifadah) and riots where people simply stomp over each other in a frenzy.
I also dont get why the unkown part of your chart is so high. I mean it sounds kind of incomptent (of the chart makers)to have 900 people in such a small country and not know if they fit under civilian or combatant. I think that this might be a case of not exactly wanting to admit someone was a combatant or not.

My point is, having been that both people's have been at war for 60 years so far, isn't the hope of an instant peace and conciliation unrealistic? The negative attitudes can't instantly end

With the Israeli jews its really impossible to know, some peaceful periods several percent of the country can appear at mere rallies for peace, and then you hear of a soldier being kidnapped or murdered or of a suicide bombing and the outlook shifts to being anti-palestinian again, its way too volatile to really tell.
With the palestinians its already pretty bad and can only detoriate, they pretty much teach their kids to hate jews and Israelis wether people would like to admit it or not. Maybe now its sort of bad with people like arafat that only want peace because they want vast political power and would nuke the Israelis for a position in goverment if he could, In 40 years I imagine that people like that wont even exist, it will just be those who try and get temporary leadership powers by promising the impossible goal of killing the Israelis, which just goes into infinite loop from there.
In other words if theres a small chance now there probably wont even be that in a few decades, Not that it matters much if security in Israel is decent. I dont think people from either side want to admit it, but to be honest the palestinians amount to little more then pests from a security angle. Even if they riot or something so what? Just leave them where they are and cut off the power and water which actually saves money for the goverment. Its all from a moral view I would say.

[Bovril]

I think you misunderstood the thrust of my post. It was made in response to the absurd simplification of the situation offered by humvee2800. I threw out some other generalisations (though mine were backed up with facts) that contradicted his. The aim was to nullify his argument, not to make sweeping ethical pronouncements on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Satire truly is dead.

[roy34543]

think you misunderstood the thrust of my post. It was made in response to the absurd simplification of the situation offered by humvee2800. I threw out some other generalisations (though mine were backed up with facts) that contradicted his. The aim was to nullify his argument, not to make sweeping ethical pronouncements on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Satire truly is dead.

Believe it or not, I realized you were being satiric. but i decided to make a serious observation out of it anyway. Ive seen the chart before, made the same argument before i guess. Some people do take these things rather seriously. Never got a proper answer for why 17% of the Israeli population can fit on either side of the graph either. Though knowing who make these things, its not hard to guess.

[Manco]

I say, just stop telling the kids whether they are Israeli or Palestinian. They look the same anyway, and after one generation they wouldn't see the difference anymore.

I mean, what's the difference between one hairy brown guy and another hairy brown guy?