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  1. #1
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    Default Containing China: Valid Threat or Cold War Fearmongering?

    what is the rationale behind predominantly US policies of containing china and propagating the idea that china is a threat to world peace?
    is china a valid threat? if so, to what specifically? world peace or american hegemony?

    or is it jsut deft political fearmongering by democratically elected leaders who need a scapegoat and a bogeyman to distract voters from problems at home (in order to get re-elected)?

    the argument that china is totalitarian, undemocratic, etc etc, wont wash here because it doesnt actively try to turn other countries like that; there are no chinese expeditionary forces invading soverign countries for natural resources, in fact, china has been historically isolationist and continues to be so today. the oft-heard hypocritical cry regarding 'china's appalling human rights records' (uttered by smarmy smug journalists, usually from a predominantly western source) is irrelevant to why we must 'contain china'; saudi arabia has 'appalling human rights records', israel and the USA have 'appalling human rights records' as well yet we dont hear cries from ppl that we must 'contain' these countries.

    hopefully, this thread will open peoples' eyes about why predominantly western politicians want us to be afraid of china, even as they trample over our rights.
    being ever the cynic, i'd say it's for a reason as shortsighted as having a convenient foreign scapegoat with which to distract your citizens from problems in your own regime.

    in the latest debacle regarding india's access to dual use nuke tech without being a signatory of the NPT (whereas iran is)-once again, highlighting washington's hypocrisy and double standards-the americans seek to contain china using the proxy that is india.
    so whilst americans can sit safe behind their missile shield, their indian vassals allies can fight and die and bleed in a potential conflict which benefits american interests only.
    america here kinda reminds me of petyr baelish from ASOIAF-wanting to keep its hands clean and let others do its dirt work for it.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    U.S. attempts to construct and consolidate an alliance to contain China's seemingly inexorable rise registered another milestone in November when the U.S. Senate passed a bill to allow the government to transfer nuclear fuel and technology to India. The nuclear deal with India flies in the face of long-standing U.S. rhetoric about nuclear proliferation and is yet another blow to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).
    There has been a degree of opposition in the United States to the agreements with the India deal. For example, in an op-ed in the Washington Post, former President Jimmy Carter was scathing about the “dangerous deal with India.” Many predicted a difficult time for the administration in pushing through a bill so flagrantly in conflict with its posturing on proliferation. “In concluding its nuclear deal with India, the Bush administration faces significant opposition in Congress and tough questions from its allies on whether the arrangement could set a precedent encouraging the spread of nuclear weapons to Iran and other potential foes of the United States,” opined Steven Weisman in The New York Times.
    But when it came to it, this “significant opposition” faded away like the morning mist. On November 17, the Senate decided by 85 votes to 12 that, in the words of The New York Times correspondent, the “goal of nurturing India as an ally outweighed concerns over the risks of spreading nuclear skills and bomb-making materials.”
    The U.S. decision to tie the nuclear knot with India is in part about money—the size of the growing Indian economy and the profits to be made in the new nuclear-military relationship. More importantly, however, India figures prominently in general U.S. geostrategic aims in Asia and toward China in particular.
    The Economics of the Deal

    India is the second fastest growing major economy in the world. According to the CIA its real GDP grew 7.6% in 2005, not far behind China's 9.3% and over twice America's 3.5%. It is also, again according to the CIA, the fourth largest economy in the world on a purchasing power parity basis (China comes in at number two) and accounts for 1.1% of world imports. In general, India is a large and increasingly attractive market and economic partner.
    The nuclear deal links this rapidly growing economy more closely to the United States and also boosts trade in a particularly profitable sector. The nuclear industry is big business, and “nuclear transfer” translates into significant sales for U.S. nuclear technology firms.
    Then there are conventional armaments. India is a major military power with an appetite to match. In 2005 it was the largest buyer of arms in the developing world with purchases of US$5.4 billion. Russia, to America's chagrin, was the largest seller to the developing world, and India is its principal market. The administration hopes that the nuclear deal will change all that by paving the way for a huge $6 billion contract to buy 124 U.S. fighter aircraft.
    Such arms deals, of course, will have no relationship with proliferation, because that is what countries like Russia, China, and North Korea do, not the United States. Bill Clinton, in his State of the Union speech in 1999, proclaimed, “We must increase our efforts to restrain the spread of nuclear weapons and missiles, from [North] Korea to India and Pakistan.” In the world of geopolitics, however, seven years is a very long time. And the past is very much a different country.
    Strategic Partnership

    Although important, money is only part of the reason behind the nuclear deal. The U.S.-India strategic relationship—and that's what they are calling it—gives the United States leverage over India in many ways, or so it is hoped in Washington and feared in Delhi. The Communist Party of India, a junior partner in Singh's coalition government, has warned that “the strategic relationship only means that India will be part of the U.S. strategies of global policing and undermine its role in international politics and its resolve to promote multilateralism in international relations.” United Progressive Alliance Chairperson Sonia Gandhi said that the UPA, and the Congress party, would not accept anything outside the original agreement of July 18, 2005.
    One huge danger, which for obvious reasons is seldom articulated in public, is that India will become embroiled in America's anti-Islamic crusade. India has, in the past, refused to send troops to Iraq. That particular request is unlikely to surface again, given likely U.S. plans for disengagement. But as the relationship deepens, similar requests might be more difficult for India to reject. Nearly one-seventh of India's population is Muslim, and inter-communal violence, and terrorism, is a constant concern.
    While deployment of Indian troops to Iraq is unlikely, the United States may well call on India for other forms of assistance, such as support against Iran. India has traditionally maintained good relations with Iran, in part to counterbalance Pakistan. Also, for a number of years, India has talked with Iran about a pipeline that would supply natural gas from Iran via Pakistan. This energy deal must produce palpitations in certain Washington hearts. Not merely would it provide revenue for Iran (and Pakistan), and give India (and Pakistan) a degree of energy security, away from the immediate attention of the U.S. navy. It would also tie the three countries together in mutual benefit.
    Containing China

    For America, however, the real strategic target of the U.S.-India relationship is China. How the United States implements its China containment strategy, and how successful such a strategy will be, is another matter. China has military, economic, and diplomatic cards to play. India came off badly when it picked a fight with China in 1962 and is not looking to revive any conflict. China overtook the United States a couple of years ago as the major supplier to the Indian market. President Hu Jintao has just concluded a visit to South Asia where he appears to have pulled off quite an achievement in developing a better relationship with India without annoying Pakistan, something that Bush has not been able to do.
    In addition, China (presumably with Russian approval) implemented a significant strategic counter-offensive in June 2006 by inviting India (along with Iran, Pakistan, and Mongolia) to become full members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO). This invitation reversed China's position, stated as recently as January, that India and the other countries would have to be content with observer status. The SCO, formed in 2001 to check U.S. influence in Central Asia, may well expand to counterbalance a similarly expanding NATO. So the contest for India's favor is by no means a forgone conclusion.
    Moreover, India has its own games to play and is no mere cat's paw of other powers. Apart from its perennial contest with Pakistan, it seeks a dominant position in South Asia with its interventions in East Pakistan/Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, and expansion of influence in the Himalayan states. It has also sought a degree of primacy in the Indian Ocean and adjacent Southeast Asia. In short, India is looking to establish a role commensurate with its importance on the world stage.
    Nevertheless, the strategic interests of India and America with respect of China have a natural overlap. Washington would probably view favorably any increase in India's ability to project military power in Asia. The U.S.-India agreements allow for closer cooperation in defense and in areas such as satellites and space exploration. It is not clear to what degree the United States will help India develop its nuclear missile capability, and such protocols will certainly not be made public. The New Framework for the U.S.-India Defense Relationship of June 2005 certainly does not clarify this matter.
    India's missile program is a key determining factor shaping the U.S.-India-China triangle. India's Agni III missile, which has a design range of 3,500 km, had an unsuccessful test in July when it only reached 1000 km. India claims that a special steel to be used in its scheduled 2007 test will increase the design range between 15 and 30%. The distance between Delhi and Beijing is 3,800 km, so the improved Agni III, if successful, will bring all of China within range. How much help are Indian scientists getting from their new friends in Washington? It is not yet known but one area of missile cooperation the New Framework did specifically mention was “missile defense.” On November 27, India claimed to have successfully conducted an anti-missile test, intercepting one (nuclear-capable) Prithvi with another.
    This developing friendship between the United States and India has all sorts of ramifications. It influences, for instance, America's relationship with Pakistan, and the United States needs Pakistan in its increasingly difficult struggle to control Afghanistan. However, Washington's willingness to jeopardize other important relationships indicates just how central the containment of China is to U.S. strategic policy.

    Tim Beal teaches at Victoria University of Wellington. He is the author of North Korea: The Struggle Against American Power (Pluto Press, London and Ann Arbor) and is currently working on a study of the impact of China and India on international political economy. His personal site is at www.vuw.ac.nz/~caplabtb/beal.html.


    source: http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/3775

    for those of you who support 'containg china', rationalise your fears.
    explain to us why you are in favour of containing an historically insular country and needlessly creating a tense cold war environment in central asia (hey military buildups and cold wars benefit those who make the weapons-ironically the US arms industry; the military indistrial complex)
    Last edited by Exarch; October 31, 2008 at 12:46 AM.

  2. #2
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    I say both. China is expanding rapidly at the cost of the Western market, since they're producing stuff, not us, and they are VERY rapidly expanding their military (although this in no way compares to the US' money spent on the Armed Forces). I will not be surprised if they go to Russia to reclaim lands lost, or try to retake Taiwan.

    I don't predict this to happen in the next four years or anything, but I do believe it WILL happen eventually, within our lifetime.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos View Post
    I say both. China is expanding rapidly at the cost of the Western market, since they're producing stuff, not us, and they are VERY rapidly expanding their military (although this in no way compares to the US' money spent on the Armed Forces). I will not be surprised if they go to Russia to reclaim lands lost, or try to retake Taiwan.

    I don't predict this to happen in the next four years or anything, but I do believe it WILL happen eventually, within our lifetime.
    You expect china to ask russia hey give us the land back or we will nuke you? As for taiwan I don't see them ever going to be indepenace. Anyway Sooner or later Usa aren't going be super power, Eu, India, china, and even russia going to take in charge. But of course usa doesn't want this to happen.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    All depends on how China acts, if they become more standoffish or even
    expansionist, the whole west (not just the US) and the countries around it
    will react in some fashion.
    "World opinion" is a cacaphony of noise, even at the government level. There is no "world opinion" of over 6 billion people. People pretend it exists to try to reinforce their own biased viewpoints. -Senno


  5. #5

    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Lance View Post
    All depends on how China acts, if they become more standoffish or even
    expansionist, the whole west (not just the US) and the countries around it
    will react in some fashion.
    Which is the point. Historically China isn't expansionist. It's not the next Soviet Union, the two blocks are uncomparable, something Washington doesn't realise.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chukada1 View Post
    Historically China isn't expansionist.

    How far back in history are you going? Obviously China isn't the soviet union
    but that doesn't mean at one time they didn't, just like every other country,
    have ambitions. And on the general topic the only beef the US has with China
    is the export of potentially dangerous products to the US because either
    by accident or because some corrupt businessman cut corners to save money
    Last edited by Broken Lance; October 30, 2008 at 06:40 PM.
    "World opinion" is a cacaphony of noise, even at the government level. There is no "world opinion" of over 6 billion people. People pretend it exists to try to reinforce their own biased viewpoints. -Senno


  7. #7
    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chukada1 View Post
    Historically China isn't expansionist.
    ...Tibet...

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    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Invading countries is our job, can't have China muscle in on the racket. Of course, we invade countries for virtuous reasons. If China starting invading countries it would be for evil reasons.

    No, its about rationalising hegemony (we better be the most powerful, cos look at how awfull the guy who might be invading countries is), excusing crimes (at least we're not as bad as them) and lashing out as you loose you place at the top of the heap.

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    Lord Consul's Avatar Armchair intellectual
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    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    China should be contained, subtly, but surely.

    History shows us that whenever a State gets too powerful, its leaders start getting funny ideas about territory and national sovereignty.
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    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Consul View Post
    China should be contained, subtly, but surely.

    History shows us that whenever a State gets too powerful, its leaders start getting funny ideas about territory and national sovereignty.
    should a coalition of nations start to contain the USA then (tho some may say it's too late for that)?

    china has a right to maintain territiroial and national soverignty same as any other country; heck, if queensland wanted to secede from oz,i'd......actually be fine with it lol

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    should a coalition of nations start to contain the USA then (tho some may say it's too late for that)?

    china has a right to maintain territiroial and national soverignty same as any other country; heck, if queensland wanted to secede from oz,i'd......actually be fine with it lol
    No coalition of nations can contain the US, unfortunately... Unrestricted power is always a bad idea, Exarch.

    Using an old adage, it's better to have a world with many hammers and few nails, instead of countless nails and only one hammer.
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    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Consul View Post
    No coalition of nations can contain the US, unfortunately... Unrestricted power is always a bad idea, Exarch.

    Using an old adage, it's better to have a world with many hammers and few nails, instead of countless nails and only one hammer.
    agreed,

    unrestricted power is tantamount to the insanity that was the 1930-1940s. at least the UN and worldwide multilateral institutions are somewhat more respected than they were....

    i do think however, that any coalition of nations could contain the US if they believed the US was a major threat to world peace, like the fable with the rabbits and the eagle

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    Lorgan's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Containing China: Valid Threat or Cold War Fearmongering?

    China is not threat to world peace in my opinion, it only treathened and in fact ended the so called "stable" monopolar system with the USA as one and only superpower. This lead, as we have seen to incredibly arrogant behavior, so in fact it is a good thing that China has risen.

    However they will never be a threat to world peace in my opinion, unless of course driven into a corner. Chinese have never been a warlike people, paying invaders off in stead of fighting them from the beginning of their history. If China wanted it could have ruled the world thousand years ago in the way the Europeans did once they got access to what was basically ancient Chinese technology.

    If there is one thing history teaches us it is that it is not in their nature to make a move for world domination, and even if Mao managed to re-educate their nature, it's economy relies too heavily on trade, especially with Western countries to even consider screwing all this up and risk losing everything just to conquer a few territories.

    Leave China alone - don't meddle in it's internal affairs - and it will develop in a superpower, but not an agressive one.

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    Libertus
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    Default Re: Containing China: Valid Threat or Cold War Fearmongering?

    @Exarch, good to see a fellow QLD'er here

    My veiws on the Chinese issue are as such. Firstly I think it is appauling that the current U.S. regime and alot of young Americans and Australians see fit to disrespect nations such as Iran, Iraq, China ect ect. These nations heritage, culture, customs and history is thousands and I mean thousands of years older then our own. We are purely young and arrogant as nations, and have no right interfering in there domestic policies and every day way of life of these countries. How does the saying go - Respect ones elders...

    I also see America attempting to do what they did to the Japanese in WW2. They are trying to isolate and cut off China from natural resources as a means to force their hand into conflict. Like Japan in WW2. The U.S. oil embargoe cut off the life line resource that Japan needed to run it's industry, navy and airforce. So Japan was hence left with no option but to go on an offensive expansionist campaign in the Paific as a means to secure the resources that they needed. Was it likely to happen anyway. Had Japan defeated China and acheived Hegemony, then yes it was possible. But like now with China, America simply excellerated the commencement of hostilities.

    Also I think it was either 2006 or 2007, over 400 million people in China bought cell phones and lap top computers, that's more people that live in the entire U.S. That is signs of a juggernaught Chinese economy becoming even stronger. Then let's also keep in mind that China is one of, if not the largest exporter in the world. If Chinese industry closes it's doors to western civilization, then OK. Chinese economy hurts, but so does ours. I think the USA is used to being the economic and military super power of the world. At the current point in time, the USA is threatened with being over taken in every aspect by China. So to put it in plain terms. America is used to being number 1, and America is doing what it can to make sure it retains that number 1 spot.

    Is China a threat? Because of China's isolationist and closed society ideals, I really don't know. But if America continues on it's bullying campaign against the eastern Dragon, I fear that we will all find out. SE.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    China should be contained, subtly, but surely.

    History shows us that whenever a State gets too powerful, its leaders start getting funny ideas about territory and national sovereignty.
    True

    should a coalition of nations start to contain the USA then (tho some may say it's too late for that)?
    Excellent point. I fear that if China becomes to powerful it will starting to act more like the US. It will use arms to protect and expand there influence in the world.


    addicted to nationalism? in what way?
    the surge of protests earlier this year was in retaliation to biased western media reports, not because they are 'addicted to nationalism'; IMHO, chinese are no more natioanlistic than british or americans or even apathetic australians.
    I disagree i have lived with some Chinese and they are extremely nationalistic and won`t take any hit of critic against there country.
    Last edited by Xan; November 02, 2008 at 05:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    should a coalition of nations start to contain the USA then (tho some may say it's too late for that)?
    No coalition is needed, China is beginning to contain the US all by its lonesome, with our help! Not militarily, not even diplomatically...but economically. The US sends more money to China than any other country I know, in exchange for either cheap crap goods that don't last very long, or high-tech electronics that are quickly outdated...either way, it's a self-sustaining racket. Pretty soon we'll all be working at Walmart.
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

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    ErikinWest's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by chamaeleo View Post
    No coalition is needed, China is beginning to contain the US all by its lonesome, with our help! Not militarily, not even diplomatically...but economically. The US sends more money to China than any other country I know, in exchange for either cheap crap goods that don't last very long, or high-tech electronics that are quickly outdated...either way, it's a self-sustaining racket. Pretty soon we'll all be working at Walmart.
    Pretty soon you will if China stops making things for you. Firstly, China mainly recycles it's current account surplus back into US Treasuries propping up your inherently weak currency. Hopefully they stop, and instead your public debt has to be serviced at say 4%, or some sort of reasonable level. Then your country can spend all excess capacity servicing it's bloated debt. And then to pay it off, you'll have to shift to a low paying industrial base (hmm sounds like the China you so despise).

    Don't worry, I'm sure the UAW won't be representing these factories, if you actually want to export goods, American workers will be paid competitive global salaries. And then the US can export "...cheap crap goods that don't last very long, or high-tech electronics that are quickly outdated".

    Cheers,
    Erik

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  18. #18

    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikinWest View Post
    Pretty soon you will if China stops making things for you. Firstly, China mainly recycles it's current account surplus back into US Treasuries propping up your inherently weak currency. Hopefully they stop, and instead your public debt has to be serviced at say 4%, or some sort of reasonable level. Then your country can spend all excess capacity servicing it's bloated debt. And then to pay it off, you'll have to shift to a low paying industrial base (hmm sounds like the China you so despise).

    Don't worry, I'm sure the UAW won't be representing these factories, if you actually want to export goods, American workers will be paid competitive global salaries. And then the US can export "...cheap crap goods that don't last very long, or high-tech electronics that are quickly outdated".

    Cheers,
    Erik
    Precisely. China's already got the US bent over, making all of our complaints of worker abuse, economic undercutting and environmental degradation quite devoid of any implied threat.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't despise China. They're making the most out of our greed, and we'll get what's coming to us. I do try to boycott their products whenever possible...quite unlike China's most vocal opponents here in the US: you'd be shocked to see how many big, white pickups and SUVs are parked in front of Walmart on weekends...all sporting shiny US-flag stickers (prolly made in China)!

    Nice sig, by the way...I just listened to "Cannonball's Sharpshooters" yesterday. There's a cat who should've lived much longer... +rep for good taste and grasp of economics!
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Consul View Post
    China should be contained, subtly, but surely.

    History shows us that whenever a State gets too powerful, its leaders start getting funny ideas about territory and national sovereignty.
    Oh I get it. When China becomes powerful, you're saying they will maintain national sovereignty and care about the territory which is part of China. Yes, we need to contain China from being China, lest they invade themself.

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    Default Re: Containing China: valid threat or cold war fearmongering?

    dp

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