Women of Religion

[PointOfViewGun]

Apparently in all Abrahamic religions males are dominant and this have been effecting womens place in society. Wouldn't it be better if we had female imams or a female pope or female priestess? It would certainly change the view of women and bring much more respect to them. But what is preventing this from happening? I certainly think if we have equal involvement of females in religious authorities the violence against women would decrease dramatically. What do you think?

[Rex Anglorvm]

The Church of England certainly has quite a number of women in its clergy, but it also has falling numbers at its congregations.

In saying that the numbers have been falling for years though...

I was married by a female vicar - made no difference at all on the day - I was still bricking it!

[Lysimachus]

In most cultures men are considered superior simply because they are naturally physically stronger and I don't think this mentality is going to die out any time soon.

[Bovril]

Sexism is a problem in all societies, I don't think we need to go into the reasons why having women clergy in Nigeria or Pakistan is not yet feasable. However, in western Europe and places like Canada or Australia, many religious organisations to accept women. One problem is that many of the religious organisations that orperate in these countries also operate in less progressive societies, and so people in these places are held back by fear of schism. The Church of England is an excellent example of this; moves towards acceptance of gays and women in the UK have caused serious problems with branches of the church in Africa and to a lesser extent the US. Another problem is that many religious texts, including those of all three Abrahamic religions are sexist. There's no getting around it, they were written by sexist men in sexist societies, and explicitly say women and men should be treated differently. Paul says women should not speak in Church, if they have questions they should ask their father or husband at home. If women can't even ask questions in Church, its a big leap for them to preside over services.

As for the issue of violence against women, I think you may have a point. I think rape and domestic abuse have a lot to do with the sort of power relations that exist in our society, and if women were seen by men and themselves as equals in every area of life, then violence against women might decrease. I actually think one of the most important ways to decrease violence by men is to try and deconstruct macho culture, and to help men deal with anger in healthier ways. Empowering women is only half the story. But that's a subject for another thread.

[Zenith Darksea]

Apparently in all Abrahamic religions males are dominant...

Oh, you mean like this male:



Oh wait, that's not a man. That's the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, with her son Jesus Christ. And what is special about the Virgin Mary? Well, she is seen by Orthodox Christians as the best example in history of a holy person, and we strive to follow her example. Moreover, she is honoured above all the other saints, including male saints. Orthodox Christianity then is one Abrahamic religion which, in terms of human figures at least, is dominated by a female, not a male.

I think that you are over-estimating the need for female clergy to improve the image of women. First of all, I should point out that, in a lot of Christian countries (and in Israel, a Jewish country), women are well-respected and treated very well. I don't feel qualified to speak for Muslim countries, since I'm not familiar enough with them. Secondly, I could point to any number of societies that have or had important female priestesses but which are or were still, by modern Western standards, very sexist.

[PointOfViewGun]

Oh wait, that's not a man. That's the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, with her son Jesus Christ. And what is special about the Virgin Mary? Well, she is seen by Orthodox Christians as the best example in history of a holy person, and we strive to follow her example. Moreover, she is honoured above all the other saints, including male saints. Orthodox Christianity then is one Abrahamic religion which, in terms of human figures at least, is dominated by a female, not a male.

I think that you are over-estimating the need for female clergy to improve the image of women. First of all, I should point out that, in a lot of Christian countries (and in Israel, a Jewish country), women are well-respected and treated very well. I don't feel qualified to speak for Muslim countries, since I'm not familiar enough with them. Secondly, I could point to any number of societies that have or had important female priestesses but which are or were still, by modern Western standards, very sexist.

There are examples but they're mostly individuals that proved to be extraordinary. What I'm saying is giving the same options to females as they are given to males. In many Muslim countries, females are pretty much oppressed but in European countries domestic violence is an important issue as well as in all other countries. I think you're underestimating this gender discrimination affects that societies face.

[Cluny the Scourge]

And what is special about the Virgin Mary? Well, she is seen by Orthodox Christians as the best example in history of a holy person, and we strive to follow her example.Moreover, she is honoured above all the other saints, including male saints. Orthodox Christianity then is one Abrahamic religion which, in terms of human figures at least, is dominated by a female, not a male.

But what is her "example"? What did she actually do? Give birth and raise a child, i.e. the very thing the overwhelming majority of women end up doing.

What else did she do? Who knows?
What were her opinions? We have no idea, because they are nowhere reported.
What efforts did she make to show people how to live? Again, no idea.

And why is all this?

Because she was a woman. All she did that was of any use to the extremely male-oriented religion, Christianity, was to be a good little dutiful brood-mare.

And this is what Christian teaching expects from women - that they be PURE (i.e. repressed); that they be DUTIFUL (i.e. obedient); and above all that they be SILENT.

[jankren]

But what is preventing this from happening?

The contents of their respective religious scriptures ...

[The Cobra]

Why does this thread sound so retarded?

[PointOfViewGun]

Why does this thread sound so retarded?

Does every thread has to fall in your definition of intelligence?

The contents of their respective religious scriptures ...

Do they really? Or are they manipulated in to something they're not referring to by men?

[jankren]

Do they really? Or are they manipulated in to something they're not referring to by men?

(I Corinthians 14:34-35)
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience.
And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in church."

(Timothy 2:12-14)
"And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."

(1 Timothy 2:11)
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission."

If the Bible really have any value for Christians, I dont think they should let women say anything in church let alone becoming a priestess.

The Jews and the Muslims dont pay only lip service to their religious books. Thats why they enjoy oppressing women day in day out.

[Bovril]

Why does this thread sound so retarded?

Do you really think its a 'retarded' thread, or are you threatened by the idea that there is a lot of sexism in organised religion?

[Bovril]

1 Timothy 2 is a very interesting text, here it is in full:

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Now to me the really interesting bit is "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man". Now, it seems to me that, read faithfully, a woman should never be a man's boss. I don't think this text is merely talking about religious matters. From the context this is a general societal prohibition. I wonder what Biblical litteralists have to say about that passage...

[jankren]

Now to me the really interesting bit is "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man". Now, it seems to me that, read faithfully, a woman should never be a man's boss. I don't think this text is merely talking about religious matters. From the context this is a general societal prohibition. I wonder what Biblical litteralists have to say about that passage...

Lol, King James Version uses words for different meanings that they are usually used for.

In this case, 'suffer' means 'tolerate' or 'permit' which is the word used in any other English translations of the Bible.

Suffer

v., -fered, -fer·ing, -fers. v.intr.

1. To feel pain or distress; sustain loss, injury, harm, or punishment.
2. To tolerate or endure evil, injury, pain, or death. See synonyms at bear1.
3. To appear at a disadvantage: “He suffers by comparison with his greater contemporary” (Albert C. Baugh).

v.tr.

1. To undergo or sustain (something painful, injurious, or unpleasant): “Ordinary men have always had to suffer the history their leaders were making” (Herbert J. Muller).
2. To experience; undergo: suffer a change in staff.
3. To endure or bear; stand: would not suffer fools.
4. To permit; allow: “They were not suffered to aspire to so exalted a position as that of streetcar conductor” (Edmund S. Morgan).

I think Western Christians need to rejoin the rest of the Abrahamic faiths in oppressing women.

[Zenith Darksea]

Because she was a woman. All she did that was of any use to the extremely male-oriented religion, Christianity, was to be a good little dutiful brood-mare.

And this is what Christian teaching expects from women - that they be PURE (i.e. repressed); that they be DUTIFUL (i.e. obedient); and above all that they be SILENT.

That's a nice argument - but alas not true. Do we honour her above all men simply because she submitted to men?

First of all, your claims about the lack of evidence (that you would find acceptable) are not really relevant. We are discussing what religions believe, not what can be proved to general satisfaction in a historical journal.

Secondly, your claim that she is only honoured because she submitted to men is just not true, and does little except demonstrate your ignorance of my religion. The Virgin Mary is honoured partly because she gave birth to God, it is true, but also because she was the only human - among women or men - to completely keep all the commandments. She is honoured because she sets an active example of the right conduct to everyone. Not because she submitted to male patriarchy (in fact, Orthodox Church tradition holds that Mary was to some extent the overseer of the early Church, and that people deferred to her judgment). Nothing is expected of women in Christianity that is not also expected of men, whatever your preconceptions might lead you to believe.

[Bovril]

Nothing is expected of women in Christianity that is not also expected of men, whatever your preconceptions might lead you to believe.

Which version of Christianity? A literalistic reading of the Bibe spells out very different roles for me and women, as I outlined above.

On the subject of Mary. She is indeed the most revered human in Orthodox and Catholic Christianity. But what is she revered for and what is her role? I propose that it is the following:
A) Bearing Jesus. This is obviously a moot point since only a woman could bear Jesus.
B) Chastity. Whilst we know she had a child (James) after Jesus, she is the virgin Mary. Chasity is seen as a virtue for women. This seems to me a bizare, though not necessarily sexist idea. Repressed sexuality is as a virtue is only sexist if it is applied more assiduously to women than men. I think it is in most organised religions, but that is not within the remit of this discussion.
C) Motherhood. Slightly moot, since only a woman can be a mother. However, this does inforce the idea of womens' role as mothers. Men's role as fathers is not emphasised in Christianity in anything like the same way, and when fatherhood is discussed in the Bible it is a state of ownership, leadership and domination. What is more, Mary is the dutiful mother. The relationship between her and her male child is hardly equitable.
D) Prayer. Mary is someone we pray to in order to plead on our behalf. She does not have power herself. Her only power in this role is to display her misery on our behalf in order to persuade God (who is gendered as a male).

But the most overwhelmingly sexist thing about Mary is that she is the female role model. When men aspire to holiness they either follow Jesus and aspire to be God, or they follow the saints, and all the diversity therein. When women aspire to be like Mary they aspire to be mother whose duty is to serve and more than anything else to bear children.


(yes, that was a polemic, but the points are worth considering)

[Shi Huangdi]

Apparently in all Abrahamic religions males are dominant and this have been effecting womens place in society. Wouldn't it be better if we had female imams or a female pope or female priestess? It would certainly change the view of women and bring much more respect to them. But what is preventing this from happening? I certainly think if we have equal involvement of females in religious authorities the violence against women would decrease dramatically. What do you think?

Well the Bible forbids women to be religious leaders, but there are important women all over the Bible--Esther, Deborah, Sarah, Rebecca, Mary, Elizabeth, Mary Magdelene, Eve, and many others.

[hellas1]

@Jankren,

Sir, you have a skewed view of the bible due to not digging deeper into the Greek text.
English bibles are not the original works of the Apostle Paul, called Autographa in Greek, but are copies of copies which were originally written in Koine or Keenee Greek, the Greek used by the entire Roman world as the lingua franca.
Certain Greek words DO NOT have a precise one word english equivalent, hence confusion about the New Testament. The same can be said for Arabic.

The Quran is in Arabic, true, BUT english translations of the arabic text DO NOT agree, right? Does this mean that the Quran, in and of itself, is wrong? No.

Praise God, PBUH. Isa Ibn Miriam, PBUH. I'm a Christian by the way.

With each quote, I will break it down for you in the Greek and to the point.
O.K.? Let's begin:

Quote:

(I Corinthians 14:34-35)
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience.
And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in church."

Corinth: Ancient city w/1000 temples to the goddes Aphrodite, goddess of Eros or sexual love. "Silence" used here in Greek is Isihia, meaning "quietness" not Shut up! Pheemo, in Greek, means to "shut the mouth or close the mouth or muzzle up." THAT word isn't used here in Greek.
Also, this verse refers to certain WIVES who were chatterboxes: It must be understood that women in Roman times, except in Egypt, were NOT educated! Hence the Apostle wanted them to be educated. Paul also said in I Corinthians: "God is a god of order." "Speak" here doesn't mean talk or utter, in greek the term denotes speech of a disruptive order. Look it up!


(II Timothy 2:12-14)
"And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."

"To teach" in greek is in the continuous tense or meaning "teach continuously or teach always." "To have authority over" in greek is one word: Afthenteo, the ONLY place in the New Testament where this word is used, which from Classical greek sources means "To murder with one's own hands" or in other words to control the situation. I don't know the greek word for "Silence" referenced here, BUT IF kept in context with the rest of Paul's teaching of a Husband being the "Head" or Leader/Pointman/Spearhead known as the "Archee" in greek, of his wife (See I Corinthians 11:1) then you would see what he's talking about.

Incidentally, Priscilla & Aquila taught Apollos about the way more precisely, the New Testament says. As Priscilla is listed first in scripture, this usually denotes in the New Testament a more significant role of that person mentioned first. Notice I said "significant" not better or superior.

(1 Timothy 2:11)
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission."

In Roman times, women were NOT educated. The educated class of women were either VERY rich or were highly paid prostitutes! "Quietness" in greek here means tranquility and gentleness of demeanor. "Full submission" obviously means that this "woman" per se, didn't know God's will and had to be taught it receptively, since this "woman" was ignorant.

How's that sir? Does this help your understanding?

Ask Yeshua to be your Lord and Savior, God offers you a free gift of being called a Son of God through Yeshua ha Mesiach, He extends his hand towards you in selfless love. Accept Yeshua by asking him to cleanse you of your sins and ask to receive the Ruach HaKodesh, God's Holy Spirit, into you spirit. Watch and see what God does!

hellas1
God bless you (PBUH)

[boofhead]

I don't know the greek word for "Silence" referenced here, BUT IF kept in context with the rest of Paul's teaching of a Husband being the "Head" or Leader/Pointman/Spearhead known as the "Archee" in greek, of his wife (See I Corinthians 11:1) then you would see what he's talking about.

In this verse the word used is hesychia "silence, quietness; settling down, lack of disturbance".

[Nietzsche]

Apparently in all Abrahamic religions males are dominant and this have been effecting womens place in society. Wouldn't it be better if we had female imams or a female pope or female priestess? It would certainly change the view of women and bring much more respect to them. But what is preventing this from happening? I certainly think if we have equal involvement of females in religious authorities the violence against women would decrease dramatically. What do you think?

Better compared to what? The Indian caste system? Tribal systems of Africa? The patriarchal arrangements in Japan (and most other asian subcultures)? The underlying assertion here seems to be that religion is responsible for for violence against women. However, it is a cultural norm worldwide for women to have different traditional roles then men.

I hear many arguments in the vein of "if women were in charge, things would be different." A small sampling of historical females leads me to believe this wouldn't be the case at all. They can be just as cruel, petty, and heartless as any man.

In any case, I think religious bodies should be allowed to decide who their leaders will be without being faced with a charge of sexism. Christianity, Islam, and Judiasm, are a patriarchal religions so it should come as no surprise that the leaders are mostly men and have a wish to keep it that way. You don't see too many female Buddhist monks either.