What really bothers me

**armenian** · October 28, 2008, 05:32 PM

A tram driver in Vienna has been sacked after bidding farewell to passengers with the Nazi-era salute "Sieg Heil!"

The Austrian capital's public transit authority Wiener Linien said it had taken action after a report of the incident appeared in a Jewish paper.
The 35-year-old driver reportedly said to passengers: "Can't you take a joke?" He has since apologised.
The German phrase means "Hail Victory" and was frequently used at mass Nazi rallies in the 1930s.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7695510.stm

Arent these countries so called democracies??? Why should it be illegal to use a Nazi symbol, or any other symbol for that matter? What if that driver is a man who is a supporter of the Nazis, isnt it his "basic right" to be allowed to think and believe whatever he wants be it Nazism, or Barney? What kind of "democracy" is this, if you are not even allowed to display symbols of Nazism in your own house, and you can get 10 YEARS in prison for this??? They let sexual offenders out but keep someone in prison for something like this? The driver is a human so therefore shouldnt he have the right to believe in whatever he wants? Isnt that one of the founding principals of "democracy???"

**favre4ever** · October 28, 2008, 05:59 PM

They arent telling him he cant believe in white supremacy, they are just telling him to be a little bit more discreet in showcasing his beliefs. If the arm salute is illegal, i propose another ban....People who walk outside of abortion clinics and hold signs of dead babies. to me that is a punishable offense, it completely ruins my appetite, and the damn Arbys has to be right next door.
Who builds an abortion clinic next to an Arby's??

**Oglethorpe1983** · October 28, 2008, 06:08 PM

Im not sure about Austria, but Im pretty sure that doing anything like that in Germany is Illegal...

As for should be have been fired.... (I would say no) what he did was in poor taste...., but I think he should have been told to stop it...(and if he continued then further action could have been taken)

Engaging in something like that publically.... (even with no ill intent has bad connotations)... However it does address that fact that there is such a thing as restrictive speech....

In my opinion it has nothing to do with the democratic nature of Austria (or any country) as much as it has to do with the fact that Political Correctness has become all powerful.... especially in the German/Austrian atmosphere of Nazism and the 1930s-40s..... The problem with this is... it has (in my opinion) the exact oppisite effect then what it is intended to do.... by trying to criminalize any reference to your past.... you leave it open...unresolved..... instead.... you should allow the people to take history as it is...whether they ignore it...or embrace it should be left up to the individual

**Erik** · October 28, 2008, 06:09 PM

Uhm, it's really normal for employees to have to behave themselves on the job.

He wasn't arrested, was he?
Just sacked, as in: if you don't perform your job as you're supposed to then they'll find somebody who will.

**armenian** · October 28, 2008, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Erik

Uhm, it's really normal for employees to have to behave themselves on the job.

He wasn't arrested, was he?
Just sacked, as in: if you don't perform your job as you're supposed to then they'll find somebody who will.

What he did at his job he shouldnt have done, i agree, but im talking about in general, its illegal to show any symbols of Nazism even outside of your own house on your property, i dont think that is right.

**~~HrvatskaBosna~~** · October 28, 2008, 07:00 PM

I am also mad by this, the ZOG that rule Austria can not even take a joke..this man was not even a nazi, but just having a laughAnd it is not a democracy, when you almost win the votes, so to take your land back..you somehow die in a car crash, even if that car would have made it in that curve...

**mongrel** · October 28, 2008, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by HrvatskaBosna

I am also mad by this, the ZOG that rule Austria can not even take a joke..this man was not even a nazi, but just having a laughAnd it is not a democracy, when you almost win the votes, so to take your land back..you somehow die in a car crash, even if that car would have made it in that curve...

Employers can hire and fire who they like as long as the terms of dismissal do not breach any contract or employment law. If the employee is humourless bore that's tough.

I am not sure why the Haider whinge, what has that got to do with the boss's decision? I had to let people go myself, never had to refer to a dead gay Nazi-phile in order to do so. Anyway, if he left his car keys with his boyfriend, instead of pretending to be Lewis Hamilton whilst drunk, he'd still be alive.

Celebrate Haider's final moments with Crash Nazicoot feat the Cuddle & Coo doll link@Crash Nazicoot -

**antaeus** · October 28, 2008, 11:51 PM

if the city's public transit authority is run as a private company (even a state owned one), then they can take what ever action they want. if he doesnt represent the image that the company wants, then they can fire him.

its also reasonable for any country to set in its laws limitations on particular symbolism especially when that symbolism reflects the oppression and deaths of millions in that country's recent past. they are not banning discussion about the subject, or debate... yes its just a symbol, but you have to think of what that symbol represents to the wider community you're living in - not just your liberal self.

symbols are extremely important. just think of how many soldiers have died in history for their colours or unit flags etc... its clear that austria wants to sever its ties to its nazi past. one obvious way is to encourage discussion about the subject, but limit displays of symbolism to within the context of discussion and debate. i think its fairly naive of us to sit back in our liberal chairs and to tell everyone to just get over it... symbols have a habit of being a rally point for groups... and as such can be some of the most potent forces in humanity...

**Bovril** · October 29, 2008, 12:43 AM

Austria's bans on free speech relating to all things Nazi are, to me, indefensible. However, I don't object to sacking, or at least cautioning, people who behave in this way whilst on the job. Any emplyer should be able to sanction employees for doing things likely not only to cause offense, but also to damage the employer's reputation. This is not much different than if he had turned up naked to work 'for a joke'.
I'm fairly certain that if a Muslim driver had been fired for shouting 'Death to the west!' for a giggle HrvatskaBosna would not be whining about ZOG (Zionist Occupation Government, for those who are unfamiliar with the acronym; that's right, he believes in a global Jewish conspiracy).

**~~HrvatskaBosna~~** · October 29, 2008, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by Bovril

Austria's bans on free speech relating to all things Nazi are, to me, indefensible. However, I don't object to sacking, or at least cautioning, people who behave in this way whilst on the job. Any emplyer should be able to sanction employees for doing things likely not only to cause offense, but also to damage the employer's reputation. This is not much different than if he had turned up naked to work 'for a joke'.
I'm fairly certain that if a Muslim driver had been fired for shouting 'Death to the west!' for a giggle HrvatskaBosna would not be whining about ZOG (Zionist Occupation Government, for those who are unfamiliar with the acronym; that's right, he believes in a global Jewish conspiracy).

Yes, I do... Just look at the world today, financial markets in ruins, but the poeple who run the show are rich, whilst hardworking white men and women go without jobs, and are made second class citizens in their own home...

**mongrel** · October 29, 2008, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by HrvatskaBosna

Yes, I do... Just look at the world today, financial markets in ruins, but the poeple who run the show are rich, whilst hardworking white men and women go without jobs, and are made second class citizens in their own home...

Well if they are hard working they can write up their CVs and apply for another job, or retrain. How is an employer going to help anyone sat on their arse blaming ZOG and other such rubbish.

**Nikos** · October 30, 2008, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by HrvatskaBosna

Yes, I do... Just look at the world today, financial markets in ruins, but the poeple who run the show are rich, whilst hardworking white men and women go without jobs, and are made second class citizens in their own home...

**Burnum** · October 29, 2008, 04:57 AM

He acted like dickhead and got fired. It's a not even a story.

**Kake** · October 29, 2008, 06:49 AM

Any non-Austrian (or any non-German for that matter) should remember that, as mentioned earlier, the nazi past is no laughing matter, and to an extent, a national trauma. And if I were Jewish I would certainly not laugh at a sieg heil "joke". Anything related to the mass excecution of your relatives cannot and will not under circumstances be considered even remotely funny. And I am sure this is something that everyone knows in Austria. So clearly the tram driver did wrong. The only thing that can be argued is if the punishment was too harsh, considering it wasn't intended as an insult. On the other hand, that's something that's up to the tram company, which makes up its own rules --> end of discussion

To the OP: companies aren't democracies.

**Mithie** · October 29, 2008, 06:58 AM

This is insane.

Has the world gone nuts or is it just twcenter?

What's with all these people defending the use of a nazi symbol?

You can't go out pitching sales naked without getting fired... so why should you get away with using a symbol that represents an idea that caused the death of millions of people?

Are we living in a goddamn asylum here? This is insane. Nazism was bat

insane. How can anyone in his right mind possibly defend it?

What happened in the past 40 years? Did you people suddenly grow nostalgic for Nazism or something? This goes beyond right to free speech and right to free political leaning. Nazism - thanks to killing millions of people in horrific ways - has earned the rightful place to be an obscenity, just like screaming racial slurs in front of an old nursing home in Harlem. If you perform obscene acts, whether in joke or in seriousness while on the job or in public, you will get fired. It's a fact of life.

**Dunecat** · October 29, 2008, 07:58 AM

This is exactly why I'm staying right here in America. I like my free speech, it's delicious. If criminal charges were pressed (as a skimming of the OP leads me to believe at 9 in the morning), then it is another example of the classical divides between American and the rest of western thought on free speech, hate speech, and law regarding such.

Austria, you're doing it wrong.

**Bovril** · October 29, 2008, 08:39 AM

Eugene Debs

**Flavius Nevitta** · October 29, 2008, 10:17 AM

I am Austrian and I have to say some of the comments here are pretty stupid. Austria and Germany have to deal with this horrible aspect of their past and I have to say they`re doing that rather well compared to most other countries. There are a hell lot of open discussions on these topics, education in schools and so on. Can't say that about many other countries.

Freedom of speech? Nothing but a hollow American phrase (like to yell "freeeeedom" don't ya?). I never felt that any of my rights were limited in Austria or Germany. A republic however has its right to defend itself. Nazis (and Communism in Germany) are forbidden because of their intent to bring down the republic (Patriot Act anyone?). I see no problem with that, especially in a country with such a horrible past.

And HrvatskaBosna you are just spamming but have no idea what the

you are talking about. Haider did not win any elections, Haider was

ing drunk when he drove his car and please stop spamming your nazi ideas all around the forum and stop insulting my country by your stupidity. Thank you

**Keravnos** · October 29, 2008, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by L.C.Cinna

I am Austrian and I have to say some of the comments here are pretty stupid. Austria and Germany have to deal with this horrible aspect of their past and I have to say they`re doing that rather well compared to most other countries. There are a hell lot of open discussions on these topics, education in schools and so on. Can't say that about many other countries.

Freedom of speech? Nothing but a hollow American phrase (like to yell "freeeeedom" don't ya?). I never felt that any of my rights were limited in Austria or Germany. A republic however has its right to defend itself. Nazis (and Communism in Germany) are forbidden because of their intent to bring down the republic (Patriot Act anyone?). I see no problem with that, especially in a country with such a horrible past.

And HrvatskaBosna you are just spamming but have no idea what the

you are talking about. Haider did not win any elections, Haider was

ing drunk when he drove his car and please stop spamming your nazi ideas all around the forum and stop insulting my country by your stupidity. Thank you

Well done. +rep. I agree completely. We must all do our part to smite the beast once and for all. I don't think the driver was joking. At least all the driver lost was his job. Let's reverse the situation. If it were 1938 post Anschluss Austria and someone cried "Down with the Furher", would anyone see that person again?

**Каие** · October 29, 2008, 01:31 PM

Ha ha wish I could rep the driver. Even though I disagree with doing stupid Nazi salutes,..the Germans are a little bit draconian in their holocaust revisionism and Nazism laws but it seems it is supported by the majority of the people, otherwise someone would have changed it by now. Civil disobedience is hilarious. I just hope he wasn't an actual Nazi.