So, which faction hordes units?

[Wintersun]

I've written quite a few threads here already and have had some very amazing replies, in particular the most recent topic debated, that was: "The best melee infantry". I have just watched the movie 300 for the..uh... fifteenth time, and came to the conclusion that I feel like being Xerces. Of course, not tall, black and bald, but rather have an army that might consist of horrendously crappy soldiers, but tons of them. I want tons of soldiers, I don't care about their skill. Is there a faction that allows for hording? Decent units with a very low upkeep? My eyes went to the mongols but I am not sure how they work in the campaign, I have seen alot of frowny faces in other threads, but perhaps I'm wrong? Regardless, I'd like some input on this.


And no, hording peasents is not an option, I actually want to win this way rather than watch my men flee at the sight of the khassaki.


Thanks!
-Wintersun

[Landwalker]

I think that mobbing is going to be difficult no matter who you play because of the twenty-unit cap per army stack, unless you're not interested in what a lot of people here are as far as requiring all stacks to be led by a general. Because of that, sure, you might be able to get a general and 19 units of cheap-skate low-end troops, but your opponent will just have a general and 19 units of non-suck troops which, even though they might all be 120/unit (on the largest standard unit size scale), you won't have more than 150/unit, which is really not a significant difference when you take into consideration the vast separation of quality between your basic 150-unit (which is almost entirely represented by spear-class units) and your average 120-unit (say, Dismounted Feudal Knights).

Now, if you don't mind having un-generaled stacks, it's a different ballgame. Any faction with strong militia units, like Genoa, will do well in this situation because those units are cheap and their pools replenish fairly quickly. The Moors have that Urban Militia unit (which is only a 120-unit, unfortunately), the Turks have the Saracen Militia (which is a 150-unit). Especially if you're playing with something like Real Recruitment where there are considerable differences in the recruitment patterns of certain types of units, this will really come into play (for example, you'll need a high-status general to recruit anything other than militia units, so if you want a lot of troops, they're going to have to be militia or local-levy style units). In a situation like this, the best factions I can think of would be Genoa (strong militia units and the best militia ranged unit in the game) or one of the Iberian nations (Portugal, Spain, and Aragon have Swordsmen Militia, which is a nice addition, and still have access to Pike Militia despite having pretty terrible spear options early in the game). Ireland has Gaelic Archers (admittedly not that good) and Ceitherne, which I believe are both local/militia units that are always recruitable regardless of RR-War Council or BGR-Recruitment Ability limitations.

Ultimately, I think I would have to give the nod to Genoa. Although they don't have a militia-grade non-spear infantry unit, what they do have is very good (Italian Spear Militia, which can get upgraded to Heavy Mail), on top of a strong militia crossbow unit and Cavalry Militia (instead of Merchant Militia Cavalry). And, in the same places you'll be getting those strong militia units, you'll eventually be getting muskets and Famiglia Ducale.

The only downside to this is that I don't think Genoa fits the "flavor" of horde-warfare. It just happens to be very well-suited to it.

Cheers.

[Wintersun]

Ugh, really? so the only way to horde units would be to pump out stack after stack of militia units? that blows! Isn't there any faction who's main tactic in warfare does not rely on the typical spear - flank - cavalry charge tactics?

[Landwalker]

Well, again, it depends on what collection of mods/sub-mods you're using. Because of pool replenishment time and the limitations on who can recruit whom that come with Real Recruitment and BGR, a bid for "horde tactics" has to rely on the units that 1) Are available to anyone for recruitment, and 2) Replenish quickly. That pretty much means militia and local-levy units, as far as I know.

If you want to get away from the spear-centrism, the Spanish factions have Swordsmen Militia (but not much else, unfortunately. Sword, Spear, Peasant Archers, Merchant Cavalry Militia).

Unfortunately I can't look now (stupid work) to see which factions have good (or at least fitting) local-levy units, but off the top of my head I know that Viking Raiders (which can get upgraded to Heavy Mail, I think) are local-levy, and so may be "horde-able". Unfortunately, Denmark and Norway have pretty standard (i.e. terrible) militia elsewhere.

You might think about looking at Scotland. I don't know for sure, but they seem like they would have a lot of militia and local-levy options that you might be able to spin into a "horde". Of course it would almost entirely depend on what classification Highlanders and Highland Archers fall into (but at least they have Scots Pike Militia).

Cheers.

[Mune]

I'd recommend Either the Golden Horde, or the Irish.

I'm not sure what sort of negative comments regarding the Mongols you might be referring to, but I'd say they fit your criteria quite well. Their units all have significantly lower upkeep than their equivalents, but they don't get any high-armor units (other than their top-tier cavalry). This gives them the sort of 'cheap but massable' effect you seem to be looking for. Regarding the 20 units per stack problem, no way around that. But hey, their units aren't so bad that you couldn't beat a 20 stack with your own, cheaper 20 stack.

As Landwalker referenced, I'd suggest the Irish (if the Mongols don't suit you for some reason) as an alternative. Ceithern (sp?) and the Gaelic Archers would make the perfect combo for a cheap-but-massable army. Plus, IIRC, both of these units can be produced at towns and castles at a relatively early level, meaning they would be easily replenished. You can likely still beat the AI's 20-stack armies with this cheap/massable army using your superior human-powered abilities. Add in their awesome tier-1 light cavalry (they're on fast ponies, have reasonable armor, and axes) and you'll be doing just fine.

[Ashburn]

You mention "horde," and I immediately think of the Fatamids. Every time I play as templars or KOJ, they spam stacks and stacks and stacks and stacks of Saracens and militia. Plus, the Mamluks are top-notch and their generals are nigh invincible.

[NW Leyt]

Ah, yes. The Fatamids. On a recent crusade on Jerusalem, I just about got pushed out of there. My king and faction heir both, with their amazingness and good stacks, got wave after wave of Saracens and whatever else they had. I can only imagine my armies limping into the Holy City after the enemy forces were finally exhausted and the garrison was destroyed. They can certainly horde, so you might want them.

Edit - I made it so anyone can recruit nine of any unit per turn, so this event was about ridiculous.

[FastHeinz]

Believe me. I have been searching for this answer quit a while. After finishing my long Mongolian campaign on VH/VH. I will say this. The only faction that fits your requirements is the Mongols.

All low tier Mongols units are locals. Mongols foot archers, Horse Archers, Light lancers, Dismounted archers and so on. You can train foot archers in both cities and castles. They are easily available, low upkeep and ultimately 'massable'.

For those who say the quality of your 20 unit stack is inferior to any other typical 20 unit stack, I would say that this could not be farther from the truth.

First it is easier to get a 20-unit stack really early. You would have grabbed more land and have more money for more stacks.

Second, for every 20-unit stack you see, you would be able to afford 2 or 3 20-unit stacks. There is no way around that.

Third, mass missile spam from the Mongolian army will defeat all eastern factions in no time. By the time you really encountered full-plated infantry or cavalry, you no longer need to fight them one on one. Your army would have greatly out-numbered anything you will encounter.

Ultimately, it depends on how you command your army. I beat 2 full stacks of full-plated infantry and cavalry with just one stack of light Mongolian units. It all comes down to you.

Hope that helps.

[frederickm]

Turks, so when you change your mind you could always use Janissaries.
If you're dead serious about it, use Egypt/Moors or whatever faction with the most sub-saharan units.
Being black seems to mean, you're low quality in M2TW.