Game Balance in TATW

[Astaroth]

I'm looking forward to this amazing mod and I appreciate all the work you guys have put into it! I really love the new units, map and so on.
However, there is something bothering me a little. How exactly are you going to implement a proper game balance into this mod?

In LotR, Mordor is presented as the very powerful war machine with seemingly unlimited troops, whereas Gondor is becoming weaker and weaker. Now, how are you going to balance that?
Of course, game balance is important in any mod/game. However, here it seems a lot harder simply because Mordor and Gondor are so close to each other. Same goes for Isengard. How are you going to make it so the little Isengard doesn't simply get crushed by Rohan when the game starts? Or the other way around, how are you going to prevent Isengard from steamrolling Rohan from minute one onwards?
I don't think anyone wants to see Gondor conquering the Gorgoroth 10 turns in.
The problem is, if you make Mordor strong enough to defend against Gondor (read: giving it enough troops to be a challange for the human player as an adversary), a human Mordor player might use those superior starting troops to conquer Minas Tirith within 4 turns.
Maybe garrison scripts could be used to give e.g. Gondor the chance to defend against an invasion while not being able to steamroll everything? Broken Crescent has a lot of success with this feature, maybe it could work here, too. It would also fit with what happens in LotR, Minas Tirith is sieged and lots of people come to defend the city against the invaders.

Also, how are you going to deal with allies/alliances and how factions expand? Obviously this mod isn't supposed to be one-hundred-percent accurate and should have its own dynamic, but things like Gondor declaring war on Rohan would still be pretty weird. Or how about, Eriador attacks the elves while Harad conquers Mordor and the other elves take on Dale?
Of course, the evil guys have their "pope", but what about the good people, anything to prevent them from doing totally weird things?

Last but not least I have one final question, it isn't really on-topic but instead of opening a new topic I can ask here as well: In the FAQ it says that the mod starts about 50 years before the war of the ring. However, if my memory serves me right, at that time Isengard wasn't evil yet... at least the orc/Uruk-hai "production" had not even remotely started, nor was Isengard a power worth mentioning...

Thanks for reading and all of the best luck with your mod!

Cheers.

[Varjon]

Gondor has many rich cities so I think that balances it already quite much.

We are making it so that Good factions have good relations and rarely declare war to each other and it will be quite hard to ally with Evil factions. Everything is possible.

Anyway, I'm not the right guy to answer these questions.

[Incan]

he makes a valid point on isengard:hmmm: but i think gameplay beats lore on this issue

or if you play isengard you just start later

[Varjon]

Isengard isn't in war with Rohan in the beginning so Isengard has time to prepare.

[Mithrandir]

* We will be using Lusted's campaign AI, which is very good.
* We will be using garrison scripts.
* The good factions will have very good relations and some of them will be allied to each other (Gondor and Rohan, Dale and Dwarves, etc.).
* Isengard won't be able to produce Uruk-Hai from the lowest tier barracks (as far as I know, anyway).

[King Kong]

Hi Oceanus,

In LotR, Mordor is presented as the very powerful war machine with seemingly unlimited troops, whereas Gondor is becoming weaker and weaker. Now, how are you going to balance that?
Of course, game balance is important in any mod/game. However, here it seems a lot harder simply because Mordor and Gondor are so close to each other. Same goes for Isengard. How are you going to make it so the little Isengard doesn't simply get crushed by Rohan when the game starts? Or the other way around, how are you going to prevent Isengard from steamrolling Rohan from minute one onwards?
I don't think anyone wants to see Gondor conquering the Gorgoroth 10 turns in.
The problem is, if you make Mordor strong enough to defend against Gondor (read: giving it enough troops to be a challange for the human player as an adversary), a human Mordor player might use those superior starting troops to conquer Minas Tirith within 4 turns.
Maybe garrison scripts could be used to give e.g. Gondor the chance to defend against an invasion while not being able to steamroll everything? Broken Crescent has a lot of success with this feature, maybe it could work here, too. It would also fit with what happens in LotR, Minas Tirith is sieged and lots of people come to defend the city against the invaders.

Some good question there, but this is very very complex issue and can't be answered in short, but I'll try:
Actually there are a hundred ways to balance factions, for example with money, economy, units/unit stats, buidlings, starting armies, recruitment times, populations, money/unit spawn scripts,......
In the early game, Mordor will likely invade many of Gondorian provinces, but Gondor can beat them back with their stronger units later. We will also prevent easy inavsions through garrison scripts in certain settlements and if needed there will be unit spawn scripts if a faction is almost destroyed.
So, I assume it can't happen that Gondor can conquer Gorgoroth very early.
Also, Isengard will be balanced, so that it can't be destroyed early and it will be real threat for the neighbouring factions.
Anyway, there are much more possibilities to balance the gameplay and I guess we will achieve a very good balance and hopefully a very hard game for the human player.

Also, how are you going to deal with allies/alliances and how factions expand? Obviously this mod isn't supposed to be one-hundred-percent accurate and should have its own dynamic, but things like Gondor declaring war on Rohan would still be pretty weird. Or how about, Eriador attacks the elves while Harad conquers Mordor and the other elves take on Dale?
Of course, the evil guys have their "pope", but what about the good people, anything to prevent them from doing totally weird things?

Well, we use Lusted's AI which will form relatively stable relations among evil and among good factions, so this will prevent very unlogical wars (together with the faction standings).
Also, as you already said, the evil factions will have their "pope" which more or less forces the evil factions to be united..

Last but not least I have one final question, it isn't really on-topic but instead of opening a new topic I can ask here as well: In the FAQ it says that the mod starts about 50 years before the war of the ring. However, if my memory serves me right, at that time Isengard wasn't evil yet... at least the orc/Uruk-hai "production" had not even remotely started, nor was Isengard a power worth mentioning...

We can't solve every little inaccuracy.

[Astaroth]

Sounds good guys, thanks.

[Mithrandir]

IHow are you going to make it so the little Isengard doesn't simply get crushed by Rohan when the game starts?

Actually, I think it will be much harder to prevent the Orcs of the Misty Mountains from being crushed by the High Elves, Silvan Elves, Dale, Dwarves, Rohan and Eriador.
(Playing them will be tough...)

[DashSia]

Actually, I think it will be much harder to prevent the Orcs of the Misty Mountains from being crushed by the High Elves, Silvan Elves, Dale, Dwarves, Rohan and Eriador.
(Playing them will be tough...)

i think you must give Misty Mountains orcs the option to horde. This will be more reasonable so they won't be faction destroyed in the first turn.they have to live some turns at least!

[Mithrandir]

i think you must give Misty Mountains orcs the option to horde.

I agree, I think that would fit them. (And don't worry, they'll have enough starting regions and garrisons to survive.)

[Varjon]

In my LotR:TW campaigns Orcs of Misty Mountains made always huge conquest over northern part of the map when I played Rohan, Gondor or some other more southern faction.

[Mithrandir]

But logically, they should be the hardest faction to play. Weak troops and surrounded by enemies.

[shinsengumi]

But logically, they should be the hardest faction to play. Weak troops and surrounded by enemies.

So weak that I wonder if it makes more sense for them to just be a set of "rebel" settlements than an actual playable faction. *hint hint* ^^

In any case, I have no doubt that King Kong and the rest of the staff will work out any issues that arise when it comes to gameplay balance. Besides, if any faction does turn out to be far too strong or far too weak during the first release, there are always subsequent releases.

Last but not least I have one final question, it isn't really on-topic but instead of opening a new topic I can ask here as well: In the FAQ it says that the mod starts about 50 years before the war of the ring. However, if my memory serves me right, at that time Isengard wasn't evil yet... at least the orc/Uruk-hai "production" had not even remotely started, nor was Isengard a power worth mentioning...

I share this same concern, and as I noted previously in another thread, I personally believe that one solution to the problem is to have Isengard allied to the good factions (but with poor relations) and neutral to the evil factions (but with excellent relations). That, when combined with what Mithrandir noted about Uruk-hai production and with King Kong's assuraces regarding balance, ought to make Isengard a viable power in the game while also satisfying all relevant theme-and-canon concerns.

[Xerdun]

I share this same concern, and as I noted previously in another thread, I personally believe that one solution to the problem is to have Isengard allied to the good factions (but with poor relations) and neutral to the evil factions (but with excellent relations). That, when combined with what Mithrandir noted about Uruk-hai production and with King Kong's assuraces regarding balance, ought to make Isengard a viable power in the game while also satisfying all relevant theme-and-canon concerns.

i don't like that idea at all (no offence by the way!), i think they should just be a difficult faction to play

the only way i can see that working is if a scripted even then caused all of the good factions to despise Isengard, maybe when they start the production of Uruk Hai?

[The Doge of Venice]

But logically, they should be the hardest faction to play. Weak troops and surrounded by enemies.

The thing is that the elves especially are very non-expansionist, Lorien has been right next to Moria for hundreds of years of the goblin possession of it and done nothing.

[Mithrandir]

The thing is that the elves especially are very non-expansionist, Lorien has been right next to Moria for hundreds of years of the goblin possession of it and done nothing.

I think the elves will be pretty passive, unless provoked.

[The Doge of Venice]

I think the elves will be pretty passive, unless provoked.

yeah according to story the only real threat to the OoMM if they stay in there caves and lairs are the dwarves.

[The Count(er)]

of course the M2TW AI won't be able to tell the difference between a cave settlement and a normal one so all nearby neighbours would try and take them

[Krechet(SiCh)]

And if nothing will change they would have Trolls(2 types) and halftrolls

[Varjon]

Half-trolls? They were just tall men who were from Far Harad.