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    christof139's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Pakistan's Taliban fight each other



    Chris
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    Pakistan's Taliban fight each other
    TANK AND ISLAMABAD, PAKISTAN – It's not only the Pakistani military and the
    occasional US Predator drone that has Pakistan-based Taliban looking over their
    shoulders these days. As a sharp internal rift emerges over attacks on
    civilians, some are now turning their guns on each other.
    Last month, Qari Hussain Ahmad, a militant leader, launched a series of violent
    attacks throughout Pakistan's tribal belt that left many innocent civilians
    dead. On June 1, in retaliation, reigning Pakistani Taliban commander Baitullah
    Mehsud captured 17 of Mr. Ahmad's men and threatened to kill them.
    The incident highlights how the Taliban's ideological frontiers have changed as
    Pakistani militants have regrouped and realigned their allegiances, leading to
    internecine violence throughout the tribal belt.
    The Taliban's central leadership in Pakistan is weakening, experts say, and some
    factions have proven themselves all too willing to dispense with the ancient
    Pashtun codes of mercy and restraint – the kind that saw guests, women, and
    children as off-limits in war.
    Even Mullah Omar, the spiritual founder of the original Taliban movement,
    lamented this ruthless shift in a letter to field commanders last December,
    imploring them to do more to avoid civilian deaths.
    "In Pakistan, [the Taliban] are not as organized as in Afghanistan. There are
    too many small groups, and there's no central leadership coming up," says Ijaz
    Khattak, a professor of international relations at the University of Peshawar.
    In the rugged stretch of land abutting Afghanistan known as the Federally
    Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), Pakistan's modern justice and administrative
    systems are virtually absent – making it an attractive haven for the Taliban and
    Al Qaeda.
    Rich Clabaugh – StaffHere, Pashtun customs have for centuries enjoined tribal
    leaders to represent their tribes before the "political agent," a local
    government office first promulgated by British authorities to enforce the powers
    of national courts, police, and the federal government. Until recently, the
    system of agencies offered the FATA a semblance of federal control in what is
    otherwise an almost entirely autonomous region.
    Now that system is dying as well. Taliban militants have killed roughly 150
    tribal elders and targeted political agents throughout FATA in recent years. The
    purpose, as in Afghanistan, is to clean the slate for the advent of full Islamic
    law.
    In their goals, Pakistan's Taliban seem united, but in method, they sharply
    disagree.
    According to the popular perception among residents in Tank, a town just outside
    of South Waziristan, Mr. Mehsud and Ahmad represent a new generation of Taliban
    fighters who conduct their operations in Afghanistan from Pakistan and who are
    increasingly waging a war of militant Islam on Pakistani soil itself.
    In late June, Pakistan's government stepped-up security around three federal
    ministers after receiving intelligence that Mehsud had ordered their
    assassinations, according to local press reports.
    Recognized as the "Amir," or supreme leader of tribal militants in North and
    South Waziristan, Mehsud may seem like an unlikely poster child for moderation.
    Yet, at least in the public imagination, there remain certain lines not even
    Mehsud would cross – like killing innocent women and children.
    A kidnapping on June 1 exposed growing divisions within Pakistan's Taliban. As
    the internecine fighting increases, some factions appear willing to kill
    civilians.
    from the July 2, 2007 edition

    Through public acceptance and apparent benevolence, Mehsud has built a power
    base here.
    "[Mehsud wants to] give a positive message to the people that he is capable of
    delivering good and providing justice," says Muhammad Khan, a resident of Tank.
    "[Mehsud] is trying to give an impression as if he is moderate among the rest,"
    Mr. Khan adds.
    And moderate he may be, if compared to the cruel standards set by Qari Hussain
    Ahmad, who was Mehsud's close ally until recently. Ahmad is believed to have
    carried out most of the beheadings and targeted killings of tribal elders. He
    also launched a series of attacks against police forces in Tank in March that
    left many civilians dead, including women and children. His extremist views,
    residents add, are popular among Arabs, Uzbeks, and Afghan fighters.
    For a time, Ahmad's assassinations of local leaders worked to Mehsud's advantage
    by creating a power vacuum that Mehsud has quickly filled.
    But Mehsud has increasingly taken Ahmad to task for his indiscriminate killings,
    residents say. The tension finally reached a boiling point on May 31 when
    Ahmad's followers attacked the Tank residence of Pir Amiruddin Shah, the
    political agent of Khyber Agency. The attack was brazen not only because seven
    guests and six family members were killed – a violation of Pashtun ethics – but
    because Ahmad never sought Mehsud's permission for the attack.
    A power struggle has now ensued to decide both the leadership and the limits of
    the Taliban's campaign in Pakistan. Although Mehsud's retaliation to the events
    of May 31 has been swift, tribal elders and residents say Ahmad has effectively
    undermined Mehsud's rule.
    "The rift within the group of Mehsud has damaged his reputation as well as
    legitimacy to rule the tribe single-handedly," says a tribal elder from the
    Mehsud tribe, who asked not to be named out of fear of retaliation. He and
    others say Ahmad has now formed his own group that many militants are beginning
    to join.
    Whether Mehsud or Ahmad emerges victorious, the hostage incident is likely to
    determine the tone of the Taliban's activities here, a fact that has important
    consequences for the international community.
    "If the conflict increases, their ability to fight is more affected," says Mr.
    Khattak, "Of course, united they are more effective."

  2. #2
    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    Good news for the coalition. We have failed to destroy them from the outside- hopefully they will destroy themselves..........

    I am surprised these things don't happen more often, given the make up of the Taliban as a series of different groups all with different leaders etc. It was only a matter of time before they started having disputes amongst themselves.
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  3. #3
    christof139's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    They happen a lot, but much is not publicized.

    Chris

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    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    (sarcasm on)
    Good luck establishing a stabil democracy and justice system in the Hindukush.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  5. #5

    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    That's hardly news: The Taliban have been fighting each other since the day they came into existence. In the end the Arab faction gained the upper hand. In the Tribals land disputes are fought out with rocket launchers. So it's basically one giant mess, everybody fighting everybody.

    And so did the Mujahedeen by the way. Hekmatyar fought Massoud for over two years on behalf of Pakistan, blocking the Pansjir valley and killing Massoud's most senior commanders. Russians were quite pleased with that. Very large numbers were killed during the war against the Russians due to internal fighting.

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    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    Excellent news, now we need someone with cojones [read: balls I.e. a real man]one of our leaders, or generals to ally with the dissidents amongst the Taliban in a Sunni awakening-Iraq style deal to once and for all destroy the Taliban [and al Qaeda] from all sides and end this war once and for all.


    Where's the link?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    Excellent news, now we need someone with cojones [read: balls I.e. a real man]one of our leaders, or generals to ally with the dissidents amongst the Taliban in a Sunni awakening-Iraq style deal to once and for all destroy the Taliban [and al Qaeda] from all sides and end this war once and for all.
    You're a romantic Romekb8 )

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    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    Romantic?

    edit: Where's the link I requested christof?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    The "Taliban" in FATA can never be defeated. What we generically refer to as the Taliban are, in fact, the tribesmen of various tribes of the tribal area. They unanimously want Shariah Law and whatever you do, they will resist militarily any military pressure on them. It's their way of life. Also, you can't even disarm them because every Masud, Afridi, Marwat, Yusufzai, Bangash and Alikhel boy carries an assault rifle as soon as he's able to carry one. The only solution is political, not military.

    Also, this is hardly news. There's been infighting there ever since I can remember.
    Death be not proud, though some have called thee
    Mighty and dreadful, for, thou art not so.

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    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    Quote Originally Posted by Pashtun Mujahideen Commander View Post
    The "Taliban" in FATA can never be defeated. What we generically refer to as the Taliban are, in fact, the tribesmen of various tribes of the tribal area. They unanimously want Shariah Law and whatever you do, they will resist militarily any military pressure on them. It's their way of life. Also, you can't even disarm them because every Masud, Afridi, Marwat, Yusufzai, Bangash and Alikhel boy carries an assault rifle as soon as he's able to carry one. The only solution is political, not military.

    Also, this is hardly news. There's been infighting there ever since I can remember.
    Correct, we cannot defeat the Taliban and these people militarily alone, but in order to defeat the ideology and win the hearts and minds...we must militarily defeat the obstacle, the tribal lords and the militia leaders. The people of this region were not always like that. They have been indoctrinated and threatened over 100 years to accept the demented version of Islam through fear. One mistake and your head comes off. No room for debate, and discussion and compromise. Our way or nothing.

    Give those people the freedom they have never known, and they will return to Ordinary Islam and live according to mutual ideas.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    Quote Originally Posted by ?oMe kb8 View Post
    Correct, we cannot defeat the Taliban and these people militarily alone, but in order to defeat the ideology and win the hearts and minds...we must militarily defeat the obstacle, the tribal lords and the militia leaders. The people of this region were not always like that. They have been indoctrinated and threatened over 100 years to accept the demented version of Islam through fear. One mistake and your head comes off. No room for debate, and discussion and compromise. Our way or nothing. Give those people the freedom they have never known, and they will return to Ordinary Islam and live according to mutual ideas.
    I don't know if there can be the sort of freedom there that you have in mind. It's a very tribal society. Most of their customs are tribal, not religious. The old-school Taliban used to do away with anything that had a potentially negative use - even television sets and DVD players. The tribals don't think that way. Even many Pakistanis are now realizing that a lot of our beliefs about them are based on misconceptions and ethnic biases. The core of their societal system is justice. In fact, when they say "Shariah," what they actually mean is "social justice". If there is indeed one thing that's consistent throughout the tribal areas, it's justice.

    Plus I don't think their way of life has been changed since a 100 years - they've been the way they are since the time Ibn Khaldun wrote his history of the world. The best way forward is by helping them develop their infrastructure and their economic system. They ultimately want peace albeit on their terms. Bombing them is going to be disastrous in the long-run - it might end up making a Yugoslavia out of Pakistan.
    Death be not proud, though some have called thee
    Mighty and dreadful, for, thou art not so.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    Romantic?
    Lawrence of Arabia and all that.


    One mistake and your head comes off. No room for debate, and discussion and compromise. Our way or nothing.
    That is exactly what Tribal law is. A very rigid system but more democratic than one might assume. Islam has nothing to do with this. And you give those people their real freedom by breaking down the feudal society Pakistan is above anything else. In the case of the Tribals: become part of normal Pakistan, applying the same constitutional laws and civil right would help a lot. Now they suffer under the FATA laws. However not many within the political and military establishment want to end FATA: money, politics and a pool of irregulars for the Army to be used against opponents.

    The tribes are no match for the hardcore Taliban and Al Qaida who are replacing the Tribal system by their rules of law, based on a rigid form of Islam.

    The tribes are far less religious then you think Romekb/ Above anything else they are Pashtuns. And great fun to hang out with by the way )

    TV, internet and mobile phones are doing more to change the situation over there than any gun is able to do. It's juts a matter of time and hoping Pakistan will not collapse under its many problems.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    Quote Originally Posted by Pashtun Mujahideen Commander View Post
    I don't know if there can be the sort of freedom there that you have in mind. It's a very tribal society. Most of their customs are tribal, not religious. The old-school Taliban used to do away with anything that had a potentially negative use - even television sets and DVD players. The tribals don't think that way. Even many Pakistanis are now realizing that a lot of our beliefs about them are based on misconceptions and ethnic biases. The core of their societal system is justice. In fact, when they say "Shariah," what they actually mean is "social justice". If there is indeed one thing that's consistent throughout the tribal areas, it's justice.

    Plus I don't think their way of life has been changed since a 100 years - they've been the way they are since the time Ibn Khaldun wrote his history of the world. The best way forward is by helping them develop their infrastructure and their economic system. They ultimately want peace albeit on their terms. Bombing them is going to be disastrous in the long-run - it might end up making a Yugoslavia out of Pakistan.
    In which case, bombing is not the only form of warfare. [If we had real leaders] but reading what you wrote shows me it is an even more desperate situation then previously thought.

    It's seems these people are simple folk, who just want to be left alone to their ways but are being occupied by the Taliban and Al Qaeda forcing evil and oppression upon them.

    What do you propose we do about it?

    ----------


    Quote Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
    Lawrence of Arabia and all that.
    I'm sorry I do not follow....what has Lawrence of Arabia got to do with this? Are you trying to say I'm like him for proposing to use dissidents to take out the evil overlords?


    That is exactly what Tribal law is. A very rigid system but more democratic than one might assume. Islam has nothing to do with this. And you give those people their real freedom by breaking down the feudal society Pakistan is above anything else. In the case of the Tribals: become part of normal Pakistan, applying the same constitutional laws and civil right would help a lot. Now they suffer under the FATA laws. However not many within the political and military establishment want to end FATA: money, politics and a pool of irregulars for the Army to be used against opponents.

    The tribes are no match for the hardcore Taliban and Al Qaida who are replacing the Tribal system by their rules of law, based on a rigid form of Islam.

    The tribes are far less religious then you think Romekb/ Above anything else they are Pashtuns. And great fun to hang out with by the way )

    TV, internet and mobile phones are doing more to change the situation over there than any gun is able to do. It's juts a matter of time and hoping Pakistan will not collapse under its many problems.
    Looking at this above I can see that the problem is not with the tribal folk but with the Islamists I.e. Al Qaeda, and the Taliban. Meaning what we need is to get the people on side to get rid of the aforementioned evil people and free the tribal folk. What is required then, if the tribal folk really want their own freedom to do what they want, is for them to cooperate with the Pakistani Army and NATO and hand over the Taliban leaders and pro-activley resist their advances.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    If you want to get rid of the Taliban, kill all the men.

    No man, no Sharia.
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
    An angel once: but now a fury grown,
    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

    "There's only a few things I'd actually kill for: revenge, jewelry, Father O'Malley's weedwacker..."
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    If you want to get rid of the Taliban, kill all the men.

    No man, no Sharia.
    But if that happens, what will happen to all the wonderful women of FATA that the USMC, NATO and Bush&Co. care about so deeply and passionately?
    Death be not proud, though some have called thee
    Mighty and dreadful, for, thou art not so.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    Quote Originally Posted by Pashtun Mujahideen Commander View Post
    But if that happens, what will happen to all the wonderful women of FATA that the USMC, NATO and Bush&Co. care about so deeply and passionately?
    Easy. The uranium poisoning from the weapons used will kill their fetuses and make life hell for the women. They'll practically kill themselves.
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
    An angel once: but now a fury grown,
    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

    "There's only a few things I'd actually kill for: revenge, jewelry, Father O'Malley's weedwacker..."
    -Bender (Futurama) awesome

    Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.
    -Immortal Technique

  17. #17

    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    I love the smell of dead Taliban in the morning

  18. #18

    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    I'm sorry I do not follow....what has Lawrence of Arabia got to do with this? Are you trying to say I'm like him for proposing to use dissidents to take out the evil overlords?
    Yes, so we can make a nice movie out of it afterwards
    What is required then, if the tribal folk really want their own freedom to do what they want, is for them to cooperate with the Pakistani Army and NATO and hand over the Taliban leaders and pro-activley resist their advances.
    Problem is the Tribes have always been used as canon fodder for the Pakistan military and in the war against the Russians by the Americans. They have had little in return, well nothing to be more precise. Negotiations, bribing, schools, infrastructure and the rule of law established, throw everything at them which will improve their lives. The Taliban and Al Qaida have in the end nothing to offer. We have, but we are not doing that. Undoing this mess is going to take long time, what I find sickening is that in the end these people -again- pay the price for a conflict they did not start, let alone understand. So far the Pakistan Army is killing civilians above anything else. And they still refuse to go all out against a fairly large group of the Taliban top leaders -the Quetta Shura and Haqqani. It's a half hearted offensive, very likely it will bog down before the first snowfall. The Taliban will regroup, and next year there will be another round of fighting.
    Last edited by Gumpfendorfer; October 27, 2008 at 03:41 AM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    I wouldn't mind that, as long as the Taliban is dead.

  20. #20
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: Pakistan's Taliban fight each other

    If the simple folk want to be left alone, then they must also leave the West alone. No selling drugs to acquire western currency and trade goods (including western weapons). No sheltering enemies of the West that cower amongst them under the false pretense of being a "guest".

    If they followed these simple bits of advice, they might be amazed how quickly they are forgotten in the West.

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