How to lose a war

[Leeham991]

I've been at war with most of the catholic nations for ages (some sort of rebel problem in France... Don't ask) and I've now been driven back to owning the spanish landmass and most of Africa.

The thing I want to know is...

How, in hell, do I loose the war?
None of the other nations will accept a ceasefire and none of them are asking for me to be a Vassal. So what do I do?

I mean. When I play Rome Total War, if I loose a battle it's usually only with one nation, and they accept the peace treaty if I offer them some cash and a couple of settlements.
But on my MII campaign I'm stuck.

I don't have the man power to keep defending my cities, and I don't have the money to invest into making more money...

What?

Do I just keep on trying till I run out of cake? Or they march into my last city and steal the cake?

Or what?

Any help please?

[ChewieMuse]

Well what Id do is just fill your Border towns with troops, Use some strategies, um Ill try to list some if I can, and then build up an army in the back and slowly take back africa(its easier and more spread out) and Come up behind, and take as many arab cities as you can and make taht your new homeland, thats what Id do

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Write a guide on how to loose. Almost impossible in M2TW lol...

What faction are you playing, Moors? How can you loose a settlement? Did you give it away... defend it with a unit of peasants or left it unoccupied?

If you want ceasefires you need a high global rep. Once you are "reliable"or better they will be more than willing especially if they are at war with another faction at the same time. Don't exterminate settlements and release all prisoners.

Sneek up on a few large enemy cities with a few units and a general and sack them for large cash injection, then consolidate and build economy.

[Leeham991]

I am playing as Portugal.

My main plan for the moment is to gain trade superiority over Africa. I have only owned the south of Africa for about 1 1/2 years (I play 6 month turns) so it is still crawling with enemy merchants and other agents.

How I got into the situation...

Well... Muslims hate me, I was THE crusader military force early in the game. I took down a lot of muslims and destroyed a lot of Imams and cities. So... As far as muslims go... I'm boned.

With catholics... I don't know what happened, all I know is that for some reason the pope attacked my army in Spain...
Being the better fighter I killed him on the field. Thus was the start of my retreat back to Spain.

I also made it worse for myself by killing the pope *ehem* 12 times.... In a row.

My economy is growing by about 300 florins incoming every turn. But I can only afford enough troops to hold two castles (city upkeep is free for the units I use so I do have more troops)
Both the castles I have fully defended are at the Spain-France Border.


I think that next time I am one I will try just releasing prisoners after battle, see if it has any effect.

[ChewieMuse]

12 times, well that could be the reason the Catholics hate you lol, Ive learned to just accept everyoen as an enemy, I alliance with the AI and hten Ill get attacked by them two turns later, so i dont even try lol, Im always on the gaurd.. but like I said... Just take africa, Kill the enemy priests and merchants and dip's with Assasins, and just keep going till you get to Baghdad and then tell me how it went lol

[Strattios]

I was in the same situation as Spain. I tried to secure the Iberian peninsula and Western North Africa. I then invaded Italy via Sicily. After Demolishing the Italian powers I was surrounded. France's assassins started butchering all my generals I left in towns behind my front lines. Then they started invading Iberia while the HRE and Hungary started attacking my now depleted armies in Italy. Then Poland (somehow they replaced Egypt) began assaulting my African regions. Then was the most difficult. Somehow a bunch of English armies landed near Lisbon. It took a while, and I lost a lot of land (Only Iberia and a few in North Africa) but now I managed to repel France and England. the HRE and Hungary are now fighting over Italy and Poland is in my cross hairs. Try getting your opponents to fight over regions and get as many Bishops as you can (they help with your relation to the church). Just watch out for those Frenchies, they can be a real pain.

[ChewieMuse]

I was in the same situation as Spain. I tried to secure the Iberian peninsula and Western North Africa. I then invaded Italy via Sicily. After Demolishing the Italian powers I was surrounded. France's assassins started butchering all my generals I left in towns behind my front lines. Then they started invading Iberia while the HRE and Hungary started attacking my now depleted armies in Italy. Then Poland (somehow they replaced Egypt) began assaulting my African regions. Then was the most difficult. Somehow a bunch of English armies landed near Lisbon. It took a while, and I lost a lot of land (Only Iberia and a few in North Africa) but now I managed to repel France and England. the HRE and Hungary are now fighting over Italy and Poland is in my cross hairs. Try getting your opponents to fight over regions and get as many Bishops as you can (they help with your relation to the church). Just watch out for those Frenchies, they can be a real pain.

The french are always a pain, Ive never seen them get farther than milan either lol, They suck a$$$ xD

[Silent Assassin]

I don't want to be Harsh or anyting but I would say YOU ASKED FOR IT. Killing the Pope, killing prisonners, you probably sacked or killed some of the cities that you have captured.

This = to your Global Rep is more than not good, you are probably untrustworthy or very untrustworthy. You are in real trouble.

Ok here is what I would do

1- Try to train some priest the get better fast by sending them into muslims territory. So that they will be good enough to get elected Pope this will hlep you for sure then try to end you war with him and make an alliance, you will need to cease war with his current allies also.
2- Stop doing what you were doing bad at first in your campaign, try to gain the trust of everyone, have a better global Rep.
3- Try to train a Decent diplomat to help you wins deals
4- Only defend yourself don't attacke for awhile atleast untill your situation gets better, unless you attack the Moors.. That should be fine and even better to the eyes of the Pope.
5- Try to participate in a crusade.
6- Build churches as much as you can this will help your relationship with the pope.

I put a lot of emphasys(SP) on the Pope but he will help you gain back your honor, rep and friends that you don't have right now.

Hope this helps

Rebel

[Toshi-sama]

I really never have a problem getting ceasefires when I want them. Of course I never really do anything to p.o. anybody. Also I'm usually always friends with the Pope, having all my cities have priests and churches in them etc.

Sacking and exterminating is a no-no along with killing prisoners. Ally with one side of the map, for instance Poland, Hungary, Russia, etc. and take over the other side but of course make sure you have a reason you can ride off attacking them for like offering assistance to one of your allies or a good friend. After you take over you can bunker down and wait for the new world to come or wait for some b.s. reason for you to break an alliance and then take over! Of course be weary of invading the east because of the mongols and their friends.

[NobleNick]

Moving this to Battle Planning...

@ Leeham991 ---> I have to agree with Rebel6666: You have been asking for this. And a big part of the solution is to stop doing the "bad boy" stuff you have been doing, before you get a crusade called against you.

Before I get into detailed help, it would be nice to know:

1.) What game difficulty you are using?
2.) How many "castle type" and how many "city type" settlements do you have?
3.) How many TURNS into the game are you?
4.) How's the economy? Have you built at least the basic and first upgrade of ports, roads, markets, mines and town hall in every non-castle settlement you own?
5.) What kind of military units are you building?
6.) How comfortable are you in battles? (What I mean is: if the force meter shows your defending half-stack is outgunned 3:2 in an open field battle; are you chortling with glee at your good luck, a little tense, or gnashing your teeth in dismay?)

There are a few things which can be said without answers to the above questions:

1.) Stop killing the Pope, unless you are doing it for role play reasons (in which case I would recommend you play a Muslim or Orthodox faction).

2.) Stop attacking ANYONE Catholic (unless they are excommunicated).

3.) Unless it appears that the Pope will die in the next 5 years (look at his age), immediately get a diplomat to the Papal city, and start greasing His Stuck-uppedness's palms with 100 Florins per turn, every turn, from now until the end of the game. (I know that is a lot, when you are only clearing 300/turn, but it is worth it.)

4.) If you are only clearing 300 Florins/turn in mid-game *SOMETHING* is very wrong. Either you have too many castles, too many soldiers, too few merchants, an underdeveloped economy, or some combo of these.

4.a.) You should have only one castle for every 4 cities; or, at most, 1 per 3 cities. Try to keep coastal settlements as cities and inland ones as castles (although I know that is a bit tough to do on the Iberian penninsula) to maximize your profit.

4.b.) Your soldiers should not be loafing around the castle. Go kill something (non-Catholic) and take a city.

4.c.) Your merchants (AT LEAST six of them) should be infesting that area around Timbuktu and on toward the African west coast. Others should be headed to Northern Italy, the Eastern Med, and far Eastern Egypt.

4.b.) As was said, before: If you haven't already, get on the stick, as far as building economy buildings. Upgrade roads as high as they will go: It helps economy and also makes it so that you can shuttle your few troops around the map quickly to meet various threats.

5.) For now, try to only fight defensive battles against anyone Catholic: Park you stacks on bridges or in chokepoitns where the terrain will give the defender a decided advantage. Make sure that your stack is placed on the CAMPAIGN map, such that it can only be approached from downhill. That will make it so that your stack is uphill on the BATTLE map. Then use that terrain advantage (this is a whole 'nother subject, which I will not get into now).

I hope that helps.

[Leeham991]

My reputation is 'Mixed' funnily enough. I mean, I have never killed a town and I have only ever about 3 batches of prisoners.

Details:
1) M/M (I'm not a very good at MII. On RTW I play VH/VH )
2) I have 3 castles on the border of Spain - France and about, I don't know, I think 9 cities.
3) I'm on turn 100, but coz of my modding I still have 730 turns left to play.
4) My economy is stronger than half of the other nations, but it's lacks the power to build my army any further. All the money I can spare goes into merchant and trade buildings, so it is steadily growing, allowing me an average of 120 new troops ever turn.
5) My standing defense force in Spain is 4 knights, 4 javelins, 4 crossbowmen, 4 unhorsed knights and 2 generals(They shift position for fort and land battles according to their traits.) Most of my cities have 3 spearmen and 3 crossbowmen on free upkeep.

...
6) Hmm... I usually go into battle not believing I can win. But depending on how my troops fend while waiting for backup and the average strength of my troops, I can win.

My main tactics are to destroy the enemy in far combat, then pin them down and surround the remains with my cavalry. If I can help it I like to have a lot of crossbows, and javelins come in handy for both close and ranged combat. And unless I am totally forced, I don't go to battle without horseman.

Hope this explains some

[NobleNick]

...1) M/M (I'm not a very good at MII. On RTW I play VH/VH )...

Ah, so you are an experienced player. I have noticed the difference, too. M2TW on M/M seems about as hard as RTW on H/H.

...2) I have 3 castles on the border of Spain - France and about, I don't know, I think 9 cities...

If you can convert you least needed castle into a city, that would help.

...3) I'm on turn 100, but coz of my modding I still have 730 turns left to play...

Eh, don't know how valid my strategies are going to be. My games are usually won by turn 90-100; so I have ZERO late game experience. But I'll try...

...4) My economy is stronger than half of the other nations, but it's lacks the power to build my army any further. All the money I can spare goes into merchant and trade buildings, so it is steadily growing, allowing me an average of 120 new troops ever turn...

Stop building anything which takes upkeep. If you feel like you have to build something, build merchants and send them to Timbuktu. (BTW: have you captured Timbuktu and its sister?)

...5) My standing defense force in Spain is 4 knights, 4 javelins, 4 crossbowmen, 4 unhorsed knights and 2 generals(They shift position for fort and land battles according to their traits.) Most of my cities have 3 spearmen and 3 crossbowmen on free upkeep...

By "unhorsed knights" I presume you mean Dismounted Portuguese Knights (DPK)? Nice, but spendy. Can you get any of the following: Dismounted Conquistadores or Swordsmen Militia?

And can you get either of these: Conquistadores; or Knights of Santiago?

...6) Hmm... I usually go into battle not believing I can win. But depending on how my troops fend while waiting for backup and the average strength of my troops, I can win...

O.K.; I expected a wee bit more from someone who wins RTW battles on VH, but you are obviously doing something right if you can do as good as you do. This is an area that you might want to study up on, a bit. If I had a half stack of:

1 general
2 Feudal Knights
2 Pavise X-bows
4 Swordsmen Milita

-OR-

1 General
5 Feudal Knights

And the enemy had:

1 General
2 Feudal Knights
3 Pavise X-bows
8 Swordsmen Militia

And I was defender, and had carefully picked my terrain on the CAMPAIGN map (and taken advantage of that pick on the BATTLE map), There would be no doubt about the outcome. Use the terrain. Take advantage of the hills, rocks, trees, open areas, your horses' stamina; and use every sneaky, dirty, underhanded trick you can think of. Many of the dirty tricks I can think of involve cav; so I think you are on the right track.

...My main tactics are to destroy the enemy in far combat, then pin them down and surround the remains with my cavalry. If I can help it I like to have a lot of crossbows, and javelins come in handy for both close and ranged combat. And unless I am totally forced, I don't go to battle without horseman...

My preferences jibe with yours; except for 2 areas:

1.) I am not gifted in the area of unmounted javelin warfare.
2.) I rely on cav, to the point where I sometimes field all-cav forces. Here is a primer on using all-cav forces (written for RTW, but the techniques have been proven out in M2TW). The nice thing about heavy cav is that a 1/3 stack of quality units is cheaper, and (in the right hands) is far more deadly, than a full stack of conventional mix forces.

I hope you found this interesting.

[Leeham991]

I am working on Timbuktu... Damn Germans, Danish and Egyptians keep ruining my trade there, but I'm working on that right now.

It's mainly feudal knights as I prefer a unit that can hold up in defense as well as in attack.
I don't have any Conquistadores as they won't come around for me until about turn 500, but sword militia will be coming around in about 10 turns.
And yes, the knights in my Spanish ground army are Santiago cavalry

Edit:
Thanks for all the advice! My campaign is already starting to tip in my favor.

@NobleNick:
I think my main problem is that my knowledge of medieval warfare is very clouded, I mean. All I know about the medieval age comes from MII itself, as with RTW I was already a Roman Military tactics expert before I bought the game.

I am going to try the tactics you suggested in my next battles, though they are few and far between as now the Catholics are set on Antioch and each other rather than attacking me. Which is a good thing for me though the naval warfare is still dragging on near France.

You've been a great help to me in breaking my Economic recession and battle crisis. If I knew how I would give you +rep

[A Demented Goldfish]

why dont you reasearch some medieval warfare it might help

[NobleNick]

...You've been a great help to me in breaking my Economic recession and battle crisis. If I knew how I would give you +rep

Glad to hear things are going your way.

You cannot GIVE rep until you have 50 posts. (Remember me when you geet there! )

[Silent Assassin]

Glad to hear things are going your way.

You cannot GIVE rep until you have 50 posts. (Remember me when you geet there! )

Please remember also