Another Spiritual Messiah Claimant?

[IronBlood]

No this thread is not about someone replacing Jesus as the Messiah. I was Just wondering as we know in the First Century, there arose many Messiah claimants who believed that they were the ones to restore Israel political status as a nation. Such claimants such as Simon bar Giora, thought the nation would only be restored by violence, meaning that the occupying Romans had to be pushed out by force. Only Jesus of Nazareth stands out in the fact that he did not come to redeem Israel political situation but instead he set out to redeem the spirituality of its people.

So my question is this. Were there any (not just first century claimants) other Messiah Claimants that were taught a spiritual message like Jesus?

[Ummon]

Zoroaster. Though the term is Saoshyant in that case. And he was before Jesus. And in an Iranic, not Jewish context.

[cfmonkey45]

Zoroaster lived at least a millenium or two before the birth of Christ. The ancient Babylonians, I believe had a mix of Zoroastrians... however, if you mean someone with him as a namesake, I have no idea.

I know there was another guy, Bar Kofka (son of the star in Hebrew, sp.?), who was supported by the ousted Pharisees and Saudicees... he failed, but he was a popular alternative to Christ for the Jews at that time.

[Ummon]

Yeah, I missed the bit on the first century.

[Bovril]

It might well be that messianic expectation was a more important feature of the Jewish socio-religious landscape than messianic claimants were.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

No this thread is not about someone replacing Jesus as the Messiah. I was Just wondering as we know in the First Century, there arose many Messiah claimants who believed that they were the ones to restore Israel political status as a nation. Such claimants such as Simon bar Giora, thought the nation would only be restored by violence, meaning that the occupying Romans had to be pushed out by force. Only Jesus of Nazareth stands out in the fact that he did not come to redeem Israel political situation but instead he set out to redeem the spirituality of its people.

So my question is this. Were there any (not just first century claimants) other Messiah Claimants that were taught a spiritual message like Jesus?

Firstly, you're assuming that the non-violent version of Jesus' message that we get in the gospels is original to Jesus and not written back into the story later. There is substantial evidence that the gospels, particularly Mark (which is the major source for Luke and Matthew), work hard to distance Jesus from any association with the kind of revolutionary nationalism that led to the disastrous Jewish Revolt of AD 66-70. This doesn’t necessarily mean that they are whitewashing Jesus and that he was actually a violent revolutionary, but there is a good chance that his message was rather more pointedly political and anti-Roman than the later accounts would have us believe. Pontius Pilate didn’t crucify this guy as a seditious preacher because he had nothing better to do that day.

Secondly, there was quite a range of Jewish expectation regarding the Messiah and the coming kingship of God that he was going to usher in – it wasn’t simply a matter of “spiritual” vs “violent” eschatology. There were guys like “the Egyptian” who declared himself King of the Jews, led a vast crowd “out of the wilderness” to the Mount of Olives and predicted that the walls of Jerusalem would fall at his command and seems to have expected God’s kingship to begin then and there and God’s power to descend. All that descended on him was a squad of Roman cavalry but, while Josephus’ accounts of him contradict each other on this point, he doesn’t seem to have intended violence – he expected God and his angels to do the fighting for him.

John the Baptist’s status is unclear. Christianity, of course, claims he was simply a prophet who came to announce the arrival of Jesus. But the gospel accounts undercut this by making it clear that John didn’t even know who Jesus was and depicting him, when in prison, sending some of his followers to ask Jesus if he’s the Messiah – odd behaviour for a man who had already supposedly declared Jesus to be such. So it’s not certain if John saw himself as a prophet or as the Messiah himself. Or if John’s followers, who survived his execution and survived to this day as the Mandeans, saw him as a prophet or a Messiah or something else.

Then we have a plethora of confusing and, often, conflicting ideas about the Messiah in the Dead Sea Scroll texts. We have the War Scroll, which describes a future war against “the Kittim” (ie the Romans) in which the Faithful would fight alongside the hosts of heaven. But we also have references on other texts to not one, not two but three Messiahs: a Prophetic Messiah, a Priestly Messiah and the Kingly Messiah.

So it’s not as simple as a “spiritual” vs a “warlike” idea of the coming Messianic Kingdom. The expectations of what was going to happen were much more complicated and much more various than that.

[IronBlood]

First of all thanks for the info TG I just a few questions though.

Secondly, there was quite a range of Jewish expectation regarding the Messiah and the coming kingship of God that he was going to usher in – it wasn’t simply a matter of “spiritual” vs “violent” eschatology. There were guys like “the Egyptian” who declared himself King of the Jews, led a vast crowd “out of the wilderness” to the Mount of Olives and predicted that the walls of Jerusalem would fall at his command and seems to have expected God’s kingship to begin then and there and God’s power to descend.

Is this the same "Egyptian" refered to in the Acts of the Apostles?

But the gospel accounts undercut this by making it clear that John didn’t even know who Jesus was

But in the Gospels (if we are to assume they are right) John is presented as Jesus' second cousin. I would assume that these two had some form of contact with each other, seeing that they are related.

Or if John’s followers, who survived his execution and survived to this day as the Mandeans, saw him as a prophet or a Messiah or something else.

Well it is certian that today's Mandeans see as him as a great teacher, but as an actually prophet or founder; no.

But we also have references on other texts to not one, not two but three Messiahs: a Prophetic Messiah, a Priestly Messiah and the Kingly Messiah.

Interestingly enought I have heard of these three Messiahs before but not in War Scroll. I have heard (at least in Catholicism) that Jesus commonly described as Prophet, Priest, and King. Any chance of a connection?

So it’s not as simple as a “spiritual” vs a “warlike” idea of the coming Messianic Kingdom. The expectations of what was going to happen were much more complicated and much more various than that.

But do you know of any Claimants were close to Jesus' typical/classic message or messianic approach?

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Is this the same "Egyptian" refered to in the Acts of the Apostles?

It’s likely

But in the Gospels (if we are to assume they are right) John is presented as Jesus' second cousin. I would assume that these two had some form of contact with each other, seeing that they are related.

You would think so. But the story that they were related is only found in Luke and only in the Infancy Narratives. None of the other gospels mention this or even suggest it and the stories about John inquiring as to who Jesus was seem to indicate that this story was simply a way of connecting Jesus to John more closely. There is some evidence that John was actually the more prominent and well-known of the two, with Jesus more of a follower/imitator.

Well it is certian that today's Mandeans see as him as a great teacher, but as an actually prophet or founder; no.

A founder, no. But prophet, yes. They didn’t see him as a founder, since they trace their origins back further than his time. But the Drasa d-Iahia (The Book of John the Baptist) is their central text and he is revered as their major prophet. Jesus, on the other hand, is regarded as a false teacher.

Interestingly enought I have heard of these three Messiahs before but not in War Scroll.

They aren’t in the War Scroll – they are found in other apocalyptic and eschatological texts.

I have heard (at least in Catholicism) that Jesus commonly described as Prophet, Priest, and King. Any chance of a connection?

Absolutely. Some Jewish traditions expected three separate Messiahs embodying each of these three roles. Others expected one Messiah who embodied all three. Or a Messiah who was King and Priest, preceded by a Prophet/Elijah figure. Christianity evolved out of a combination of the last two traditions (with the Baptist becoming subordinated to Jesus and fulfilling the Prophet/Elijah function).

But do you know of any Claimants were close to Jesus' typical/classic message or messianic approach?

As far as we can make out, the Baptist did. The gospels all have Jesus beginning his career after being baptized by John and hearing his message. Mark says Jesus began teaching only after John was imprisoned (Mark 1:14) and that he took up John’s message: that the end times had come and that everyone had to repent and believe if they were to be saved in the coming apocalypse. Both teachings seem to be based on repentance and reformation in preparation for God coming and acting in the world, not on taking action (eg rebellion) as a precursor for God’s divine war on the unrighteous.

The John message and the Jesus message remained close enough after their deaths for the two to be compatible decades later. Acts 19:1-6 describes Paul coming across some disciples of John in Ephesus and baptizes them the Christian way, which they happily accept. The fact that, as with the Jesus sect, the John sect survived his execution and made its way to Greece is also interesting – the two were parallel in many ways.

[Sphere]

The cult of John the Baptist was in direct competition with the cult of Jesus in the first century. If a few things go differently, John the Baptist might be the son of god today instead of Jesus.

[Turnus]

John the Baptist’s status is unclear. Christianity, of course, claims he was simply a prophet who came to announce the arrival of Jesus. But the gospel accounts undercut this by making it clear that John didn’t even know who Jesus was and depicting him, when in prison, sending some of his followers to ask Jesus if he’s the Messiah – odd behaviour for a man who had already supposedly declared Jesus to be such. So it’s not certain if John saw himself as a prophet or as the Messiah himself. Or if John’s followers, who survived his execution and survived to this day as the Mandeans, saw him as a prophet or a Messiah or something else.

I would say that the Gospel of John's treatment of John the Baptist would certainly suggest that he was seen as at least somewhat of a Messianic figure by some.

[Ummon]

The idea that John the Baptist was the real Messiah is very prominent in certain circles yes. You can never stop people chatting and theorizing of things we all ignore, yet of course there are many reasons to consider the interpretation preposterous.

It has been a widely held belief between several great men of the past as well, though. Disregarding the fact that two Messiahs (lesser, greater) are predicted. Overall, discussing these things looks like a waste of time.