Dism druzhina vs dism boyar sons

[Moretz]

How come boyar sons are considerably more expensive even though they have the same stats? The only reason I can think of is a bigger shield... however their upkeep is crazy!

[Santiago de Pola]

How come boyar sons are considerably more expensive even though they have the same stats? The only reason I can think of is a bigger shield... however their upkeep is crazy!

That's what I was wondering some time ago too..I think I modified them for druzhina to have slightly higher attack, and boyar sons to have slightly higher defense skill..

[Landwalker]

For Kiev, Dismounted Druzhina have an attack score that is two higher than Dismounted Boyar Sons, but they also use swords (whereas Boyar Sons use axes). I believe the Druzhina also have one point lower armor, but one point higher defense skill.

According to Honga, Novgorod's Dismounted Boyar Sons have +1 attack and +2 armor than their Dismounted Druzhina, but I haven't seen this reflected in the game (although I use Real Recruitment), so I don't know if it's a typo or not.

I also found it interesting that Boyar Sons are classified as "Light Infantry", whereas Druzhina are "Heavy Infantry".

Cheers.

[Point Blank]

If you have RR, Boyar sons are Feudal, having a higher upkeep but also the free_upkeep_unit attribute, so are free in castles. They are also impetuous. Might make them capable of throwing javelins, since they can mounted, if there is any history of them ever doing that. Will take a look at the armor. Mail is worse versus missiles but lower heat penalty.

[Landwalker]

Point Blank: Are Druzhina considered Professional units, then? (Which, if I understand correctly, means higher recruitment cost but low upkeep?) Also, why are they different in the Kievan and Novgorodrian rosters?

If Dismounted Boyar Sons start throwing javelins, I will squee with joy.

Cheers.

[Tate]

Also the AI never seems to recruit Dismounted Boyar Sons. I get spammed with Druzhina every other turn but I never see any Boyars.

[Point Blank]

Druzhina are Early professionals. Kievan version uses sword. I was just going along with KK here.

Boyars Sons are Feudals and first available in dismounted form from a Fortress. Druzhina are much more available.

From the RR Guide:

Feudals
Pool Size: Low
Pool Priority: High
Replacement Rate: Very Low
Training Time: Next Turn
Recruitment Cost: Normal
Upkeep Cost: Doubled
Special: Limited Free Upkeep in Castles, units often impetuous or of low discipline
The major and minor nobles, that follow the call to arms by their overlord, the king and bring with them their armed retinues. They serve as part of their tenure agreement and formed the core of the early era´s armies, but will not die out even at the end of the period given by the game. This category includes almost all of the early, high and late era´s european heavy cavalry, a large part of the light cavalry and the noble infantry. The giving of tenured land (fief) to the feudal vassal is simulated by the payment of the one-time Recruitment Cost (which could instead in this case be called a tenure agreement). The ongoing obligation of the vassal is simulated by making it a free upkeep unit at the castle. If the vassal/feudal unit ends the year away from castle, it has clearly been in the lord's service that year/turn for a greater period that its nominal obligation, and an upkeep cost of some variety must then be paid. The upkeep costs for Feudal units in such a case are substantial, and capricious feudal nobles were a constant source of headaches to the crown. Note that these units are recruited by the castle, not the barracks or stables. By recruiting at the castle we are simulating the gathering of nobles/landowners seeking tenure from the castle lord - these units do not require training using castle facilities (stables etc) in the manner of units of other categories. NOTE: After about the year 1310, the number of free upkeep Feudal units normally supported falls. The feudal system is gradually disappearing.

Early Professionals
Pool Size: Low
Pool Priority: Medium; First Early Pro in the Pool does not count toward TFP limit
Replacement Rate: Low
Training Time: Next Turn
Recruitment Cost: All Training and Equipment/Mounts Discounted
Upkeep Cost: Increased
Special: Also in it for the loot, but no way (yet) to simulate this
This category encompasses all those types of men, who live solely by waging war in the pay of either some noble or the crown on the base of contracts for a specific amount of time or a campaign. Although they are full-time soldiers, their regular pay, while of significant size, is often just complementary to them getting a chance to loot and as they are regularly dismissed, after they served their purpose in a specific campaign, they often invest their money in a second base of fortune or have to look for another mission by another employer. This and the relatively easy going recruitement criteria mean that the numbers of professionals in a kingdom´s service are extremely volatile. They represent hard-bitten individuals or small groups of men, who are trying their best to profit from the ongoing feuds and major campaigns of the medieval world, which leads to a surprising high fighting morale, while their discipline and equipment is generally of good to moderate. The more efficient and better equipped units of this category are supposed to be that part of this class that found a regular employment in a noble´s or the crown´s service. For the first half of the game´s timeline early professionals are the core of the melee infantry part of an army supplemented by militias, while the noble heavy infantry is either used at critical points or kept in reserve. Sergeant spearmen are a stereotype of this category. The poor Replacement Rate of Early Professionals leads to the result that short and properly prepared campaigns would see a good amount of them, but ad-hoc fights and prolonged campaigns will quickly eat up the reserves of trained men. Note that it is recommended, when using Early Professionals, to disband them in the settlement from where they were hired if they are not immediately needed. This keeps upkeep costs down and they will appear in the Recruiting Pool again next turn. This is a reasonably good abstract simulation of what happened historically. If the dividing line between Early Pros and Mercenaries seems somewhat blurred, that's because it is.

Late Professionals
Pool Size: Average
Pool Priority: High
Replacement Rate: High
Training Time: Varies
Recruitment Cost: Increased
Upkeep Cost: Normal
Special: Training Time varies based on Unit Type and Quality; higher proportion of disciplined units
Contrary to their early counterparts late professionals have much clearer dependencies, which come along with the development of the stronger central powers of the medieval states. Instead of being assigned for service for a specific campaign the crown now tended to keep a significant amount of those full-time soldiers in regular pay and founded something similar to a standing army, which encompassed the most reliable (which means loyal to the realm´s government, not well behaving) companies of armed men, whose core stayed the same for a considerable amount of time, even as still a good part them had a fluctuating staff. They have a specially trained officer corps (in which, as a novelty, even some minor nobles make career) and the more advanced states even sport regular recruitment institutions (like the military academy). Their equipment is usually among the best available, as the states wanted to profit from their considerable investment they put into their training and more often used the threat of the power, which they represented, to ensure the loyality of the major nobles of the realm, than in actual battles against foreign powers. Going along with this and the technological development the kings of europe made sure that almost every tactical role on the battlefield (especially that of the heavy cavalry) now could be brought to bear by a class, whose primary dependency was to the crown, instead of local nobles. This is represented by units as Lancers, Demi-Lancers and Voulgier, which are all part of this category. Due to the infrastructure and training time required to field units in this category, recruiting cost is increased.

[Moretz]

Well I was talking about Novgorod and they do use axes and dont throw javelins. So im guessing the only difference is free upkeep in castles? When you mouse over both the stats are identical, both have good moral.

[Point Blank]

Boyar sons have +1 attack and -1 defense compared to Druzhina because impetuous.

[Zephyranthes]

I am pretty sure in my Kiev Campaign, The Boyar Sons have the AP trait, while the Druzhina uses a long sword and has no such trait.

It's only right for a unit that has the AP trait to have higher upkeep.

[Point Blank]

Kiev Druzhina use sword, Novgorod uses axe. We should probably make them both sword, save a unit slot and that would differentiate them better from Boyar Sons for Novgorod too.

[Moretz]

yeah that sounds good

[eggthief]

just play with battle for the baltic in this one they are completely different from each, with boyars being elites.

[Point Blank]

Would have made them elites but they are just sons, meant to be enthusiastic but not very experienced. But given they are meant to come from noble families, it probably makes sense that they should have the swords, and the druzhina the axes.

[eggthief]

good news for u billy, theyre called dismounted boyars with bftb and boyars are an uber cavalry unit. In case u didnt knew, novgorod's roster in bftb is more of an historical accurate roster than the vanilla one so no need to see them as kiddies on ponies anymore.

[Point Blank]

Sounds much better than vanilla for sure