Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    18,577

    Default Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Canada looks to Europe in anticipation of Obama protectionism.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Barack Obama's promise to unilaterally rewrite the North American Free Trade Agreement if Canada and Mexico won't go along with his ideas on labor and the environment has not gone unnoticed in Ottawa. If Canadians are going to have a tougher time selling their goods and services south of the border, who can blame them for looking east -- across the Atlantic to Europe.

    Prime Minister Stephen Harper and President Nicolas Sarkozy of France signed an agreement Friday to begin negotiations for a free trade pact between Canada and the European Union. A Canada-EU study released last week outlines the joint economic benefits of such a partnership, with two-way trade estimated to increase 22.9% by 2014.

    The proposed partnership goes a lot further than Nafta. In addition to allowing free trade in goods and services, it would harmonize regulations, open up the air-travel market, and boost opportunities in government-procurement. Most important, it would free the labor market so that skilled
    workers could move easily back and forth across the Atlantic.

    The free-labor point is key. As recently as half a century ago, Canadians and Americans were pretty much free to work in either country without the visa restrictions that apply today. Under the proposed Canada-EU agreement, a computer geek from, say, the University of Waterloo -- one of whose alumni developed the BlackBerry -- would be able to take a job in Hamburg or Dublin if he wished; forget about Silicon Valley.

    At a news conference on Friday, Mr. Harper said, "We must stand against protectionism and work to lower and eliminate barriers." If Canada and the EU are successful in liberating their economic relationship, we have a question: Can the U.S. join too?

    Obama Is Wrong About Colombia

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    After the final debate between John McCain and Barack Obama last week, the media lost no time digging for dirt on Joe the Plumber. Too bad a similar level of scrutiny was not applied to the slanderous remarks Mr. Obama made against Colombia.

    Joe, in case you've been hiding under a rock, is the working-class, well, Joe, from Toledo, Ohio, who last week delivered a neat summation of the Obama economic plan: Increase taxes on successful risk-takers and use the money to expand the welfare rolls.

    Joe was practicing what I call the audacity of veracity. He made the Harvard-trained candidate look bad. For that the media decided he needed to be taken down a notch. Meanwhile, the fourth estate walked away from any serious discussion of Mr. Obama's slander of the finest U.S. ally in Latin America.

    To be fair, Mr. Obama probably did not set out on Wednesday night to insult millions of Colombians and revive the notion many U.S. neighbors have of the Ugly Gringo. But when Mr. McCain pointed out that opposing the U.S.-Colombia Free Trade Agreement doesn't make sense -- because the U.S. is already open to imports from Colombia and because the agreement will open new markets for U.S. exporters during rough economic times -- Mr. Obama was caught flat-footed.

    He reached into his memory bank for whatever he had been told to say about Colombia. He seems to have found his hard drive loaded with Big Labor talking points. Here's what it spit out: "The history in Colombia right now," he said, "is that labor leaders have been targeted for assassination, on a fairly consistent basis, and there have not been prosecutions."

    Mr. McCain should have blown the whistle right there because bearing false witness against your neighbor, who also happens to be a friend, is a foul. Labor killings in Colombia have gone down sharply in the past five years and convictions have gone up. Mr. Obama was wrong. Moreover, Mr. McCain missed an opportunity to ask Mr. Obama how he squares his antagonism toward Colombia -- whose president has an 80% approval rating -- with his promise to boost America's image abroad.

    An American politician ought to know better than to deliver a morality lecture to Colombia. American demand for cocaine, which funds Colombia's worst criminality -- including the bloodthirsty Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) -- has nearly wrecked that beautiful country.

    Colombians, who have bravely cooperated with the hapless U.S. "war on drugs," have paid a steep price.

    By the time President Alvaro Uribe took office in August 2002, Colombia was almost a failed state. That year there were 28,837 homicides nationwide, making it one of the most dangerous places on planet Earth.

    There were also 196 union members killed that year. Their deaths were not unrelated to the political violence sweeping the country. The dominant public-sector unions have their roots in a revolutionary ideology that they share with the FARC. This has put them on the left side of Colombia's violent politics for decades. On the other side have been those who took up arms to oppose guerrilla aggression.

    Mr. Uribe has worked to restore peace by strengthening the state. This has been bad for both sides. But as the rebels have been pushed back, FARC sympathizers have run to Washington to discredit Mr. Uribe.

    Democrats have welcomed them. Meanwhile the death toll has dropped dramatically, and union members have especially benefited from improved security.

    As a Journal editorial on Friday explained, from 2002 to 2007 the number of murdered Colombian union members dropped by almost 87%. By any fair standard that is progress, especially considering the pattern Mr. Uribe inherited. In 2000, 155 unionists were murdered and in 2001, 205 died. The numbers only started to come down when he took the helm.

    In October 2006, the president created a special investigative unit inside the attorney general's office to handle union murders. The unit began operations in February 2007, and it says that as of this August "some 855 cases have open investigations" and that "179 security preventive detention measures have been issued, 61 cases are ready to be referred to court for trial, and 115 suspects have been convicted in 75 sentences."
    It is far safer to be a union member today in Colombia than to be a member of the general population. This is a fact, and it would be interesting to know why Mr. Obama has repeatedly refused to acknowledge it.

    Is it because of his heavy reliance on campaign contributions from the antitrade AFL-CIO? Or perhaps, like House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Mr. Obama has an ideological bias in favor of Colombia's hard left. If it's the latter, then it is worth asking whether an Obama presidency would change U.S. foreign policy to look more favorably on insurgents of the FARC variety.

    There is much more floating out in the digital ether. It seems that either because of misguided union concerns or maybe just because Republicans support free trade, the Deomocrats are determined to go protectionist. This will be a disaster with the legislative branch and the Presidency both under Democrat control.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    You know what destroyed free trade? Bush's bailout plan. You can't get more protectionist than using the taxpayer's money to redistribute wealth.

    Not even the Soviet Union did that.

    Obama's gonna have to try real hard to beat that.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Yes
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  4. #4

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithie View Post
    You know what destroyed free trade? Bush's bailout plan. You can't get more protectionist than using the taxpayer's money to redistribute wealth.
    Thats called having a "Democrat moment". The biggest opposition was coming from the Republicans. And what redistribution of wealth? The "wealthy" Democrats claim will be aided payed for most of that money with their own tax. It is more like a refund, except for all the small business owners that the Democrats want to raise taxes on.

    Yes. Openly Democrats are out to destroy free trade. The weird thing with Democrats and trade is that they have put themselves in a paradox. They want to increase job wages (not that it is a bad thing), yet they want things cheap. So they then buy foreign products do to the lower price (from lower wages). They then complain when American companies send jobs overseas to compete with foreign companies. They then remedy the problem by not enforcing higher taxes on nations such as China, yet want to increase tax from nations like Mexico and Canada that have good relationships with us, claiming that our jobs are going to them and not here.

    Another quick example is California refused to let a natural gas refinery, which imports Russian gas, to be constructed in their state so it is built in Mexico. The weird thing is that they could have extracted the gas from their own state, then refined it there. Instead, they wish to protect the environment. Result, it just happens elsewhere, but now both the jobs and the money are going overseas.
    Last edited by Strattios; October 20, 2008 at 06:07 PM.

  5. #5
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    15,653

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Under the proposed Canada-EU agreement, a computer geek from, say, the University of Waterloo -- one of whose alumni developed the BlackBerry -- would be able to take a job in Hamburg or Dublin if he wished; forget about Silicon Valley.
    This is already the case.
    The EU doesn't stop highly skilled people from 1st world nations with a university degrees from working here, that would be stupid.
    And if I (a computer geek too) wanted to work in Canada or America, then it wouldn't be a problem either.

    As for Sarkozy's other wild plans: ignore him, he's a nutter and he thinks he's the King of Europe but he isn't.



  6. #6
    craziii's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,247

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    hehe, sarkozy is a lil crazy, gotta agree with you on that one.
    fear is helluva drug
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    “The only rule that ever made sense to me I learned from a history, not an economics, professor at Wharton. "Fear," he used to say, "fear is the most valuable commodity in the universe." That blew me away. "Turn on the TV," he'd say. "What are you seeing? People selling their products? No. People selling the fear of you having to live without their products." freakin' A, was he right. Fear of aging, fear of loneliness, fear of poverty, fear of failure. Fear is the most basic emotion we have. Fear is primal. Fear sells.” WWZ

    Have you had your daily dose of fear yet? craziii
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  7. #7
    Lord Consul's Avatar Armchair intellectual
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,111

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Ambitious would be a better adjective, one more suited to Sarkozy's rather folkloric personality...
    Proud Client of Obi Wan Asterix

  8. #8
    Axeman's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Rotterdam, Netherlands
    Posts
    5,847

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?


    ☻/ This is Muhammad.
    /▌  Copy and paste him
    / \ so as to commit horrible blasphemy!
    If there were a God, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence. --Bertrand Russell

  9. #9
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    The Place of Mayo in Minnesota
    Posts
    20,672

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    yes becaue its not working.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Most democrat's are closet free-traders. Clinton's railing against NAFTA was downright silly, and about as transparent a political ploy as you can get. And Obama created a scandle when he sent a campaign staffer to tell Canadian officials that his NAFTA bashing was all for political show. In the general election, Obama has shifted his position to be much more pro-free trade, but I still think he his hiding his true intentions.

    Anybody with sense knows NAFTA is in the best interest of the US. Canada is our #1 trading partner and Mexico isn't far behind. If you think our trade deficit is poor now, it could be twice as bad if we couldn't freely export across our north and south borders.

  11. #11
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Patrician Citizen Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    20,872

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    The whole notion of free trade is false anyway - how much protection, for example, do American farmers get? European ones too?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    How can the US even claim to have a heritage of "free trade"?

    Every time an industry digs itself into a hole, along comes another enormous govt subsidy...with no strings attached, ever.

    Not to mention, all the industries that are traditionally subsidized...beef, agricultural, oil...

    Free Trade is a myth, or at least a very misleading term.
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

    IDIOT BASTARD SON of MAVERICK

  13. #13

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Clinton's railing against NAFTA was downright silly
    As far as I understood Clinton signed Nafta. Here is part of Al Gore's speech.

    It's an honor for me today to be joined by my
    predecessor, President Bush, who took the major steps in negotiating
    this North American Free Trade Agreement; President Jimmy Carter,
    whose vision of hemispherical development gives great energy to our
    efforts and has been a consistent theme of his for many, many years
    now; and President Ford who has argued as fiercely for expanded trade
    and for this agreement as any American citizen and whose counsel I
    continue to value.Today we turn to face the challenge of our own
    hemisphere, our own country, our own economic fortunes. In a few
    moments, I will sign three agreements that will complete our
    negotiations with Mexico and Canada to create a North American Free
    Trade Agreement. In the coming months I will submit this pack to
    Congress for approval. It will be a hard fight, and I expect to be
    there with all of you every step of the way. (Applause.)


    We will make our case as hard and as well as we can.
    And, though the fight will be difficult, I deeply believe we will win.
    And I'd like to tell you why. First of all, because NAFTA means jobs.
    American jobs, and good-paying American jobs. If I didn't believe
    that, I wouldn't support this agreement.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    The whole notion of free trade is false anyway - how much protection, for example, do American farmers get? European ones too?
    I believe any nation shud try to be self sufficient when it comes to key things like food and i would not support a policy that would remove support from aouer farmers making us totaly dependent of forgein food.

    Also i feel safer when eating lockal food.

  15. #15
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Patrician Citizen Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    20,872

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xan View Post
    I believe any nation shud try to be self sufficient when it comes to key things like food and i would not support a policy that would remove support from aouer farmers making us totaly dependent of forgein food.

    Also i feel safer when eating lockal food.
    I do not deny the benefits, but the claim that free trade is the way is a fallacy. Countries will protect their own. It has always happened and it always will. Take for example, the weapons industries. Britain tends to source from within, America too along with every country that its own indigenous arms industries. I am not saying that's wrong, but it goes against the principles of free trade, as does subsidies for cash crops, food and so on. Europe and america are the biggest hypocrites going in this area. Free trade is marvellous if they can flood the market with their own goods, but once the shoe is on the other foot then protectionism is the way to go. Of course other countries do it too, but they do not go on all the time about free trade. The WTO is the right way to go, ultimately, but with both america and Europe squabbling progress can be slow. Who suffers? the third world countries, generally

  16. #16

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Maybe it would be cause for concern if there was actual free trade. As it is, the so-called 'free' trade is quite exploitative of the 3rd world...

  17. #17
    Domesticus
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wretched hive of scum and villany
    Posts
    2,004

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Look, WSJ is a right wing rag and of course it will be apologizing for Colombia's horrid human rights record. Colombia is not only the most dangerous place for organized labour, it's more dangerous than rest of the world combined. Not only Labour orgnizers have been routinely targeted for assassination, but also mayors and other people who have decided to associate with popular interests.

    Free trade is not working: it never has and it never will. After 25 years of displacement and suffering, South America and Mexico should have something to show for their great "free trade" policies and so called "modernization", but they don't have anything to show for it, because for the past 25 or so years, Latin America has seen an unprecedented growth failure. Between 1960-80, Latin America combined grew 87 %, however after the implementation of neoliberal policies in the 1980s, Latin America has grown a meagre 10 % between 1980 and 2005. Yes, Latin America grew eight times faster under mixed economic regimes than it does now under "free trade" regime.


    But of course, defenders of free trade will point at China and India and say that these countries have grown because of trade liberalization. Well, that's only part of the truth. China and India have grown because they are refusing to follow many of the neoliberal free market doctrines and maintain mixed and often protectionist regimes which favour them. That's the reason why they've grown so remarkably, they've implemented a more or less proper mix of markets and state.
    Last edited by Princeps; October 20, 2008 at 07:55 PM.

  18. #18
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Oshawa, Ont, Canada
    Posts
    5,147

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Interesting. Easier immigration to and from Europe doesn't sound too bad.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    What haven't the Democrats destroyed?


  20. #20

    Default Re: Do the Democrats really intend to destroy free trade?

    Princeps- You also fail to realize that many of the failing Hispanic nations have socialized many things including socializing health care and previously private corporations. It is an overbearing government that wants to be a part of everything that once again fails the people.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •