Uruk-hai of Mordor?

[The Doge of Venice]

Alot of people who have just seen the movies assume that Saruman created the Uruk-hai when in fact Sauron did about 500 years before the end of the third age. Saurons uruk-hai were shorter and had longer arms then Sarumans who were basically mansized and stature.

Will there be weaker Uruk-hai then Isengards in the units of Mordor as elite heavy infantry soldiers for them, i belive this would follow the books.

[Mithrandir]

Alot of people who have just seen the movies assume that Saruman created the Uruk-hai when in fact Sauron did about 500 years before the end of the third age. Saurons uruk-hai were shorter and had longer arms then Sarumans who were basically mansized and stature.

Will there be weaker Uruk-hai then Isengards in the units of Mordor as elite heavy infantry soldiers for them, i belive this would follow the books.

I believe you have mixed up two different beings: The Uruks, and the Uruk-Hai. The Uruks of Mordor are bigger, stronger and fiercer than regular orcs, while Uruk-Hai are a crossbreed between orc and man.
So in a sense, there will be weaker Uruk-Hai for Mordor... except they aren't called Uruk-Hai.

[mcc1200]

“It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning”. and also “afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile”

So they were cross-breed before, yeah I'm a dork

[The Doge of Venice]

Sorry Mithrandir, it would appear that Wikipedia is a liar.

"Sauron apparently bred specialized types, such as the "super-soldier" Uruk-hai, and smaller tracker Orcs or 'Snufflers' (one of which appears in The Return of the King, paired with an Uruk of Mordor, searching for the hobbits). The Uruk-hai of Saruman were also physically different from the Uruk-hai of Sauron; they were taller and had more human-like proportions while the latter were shorter and had longer arms (as shown by Uglúk in The Two Towers). "

copied from wikipedia

yeah I'm at school and my books aren't so wikipedia was the best I had.

[Landkreuzer ratte]

I think they are black uruks maybe....???

[Mithrandir]

But didn't Sauron stop using that version of Uruk-Hai? In the trilogy, the only Uruk-Hai I remember being mentioned are the ones from Isengard.

[Erunion Telcontar]

Isengard had the only Uruk-Hai, but I do remember 'Uruks of Mordor' being mentioned in many places. I figured that Uruks were just the strongest of the orcs because of interbreeding/etc (I also seem to remember that the opposite of Uruks were the Snaga, who were used as scouts/etc and looked down on by the other orcs, but I could be wrong on that point).
The Uruk-Hai are, I believe, half-breeds, and only Saruman uses them.

[Mithrandir]

Isengard had the only Uruk-Hai, but I do remember 'Uruks of Mordor' being mentioned in many places. I figured that Uruks were just the strongest of the orcs because of interbreeding/etc (I also seem to remember that the opposite of Uruks were the Snaga, who were used as scouts/etc and looked down on by the other orcs, but I could be wrong on that point).
The Uruk-Hai are, I believe, half-breeds, and only Saruman uses them.

I (obviously ) think you're right...

[BulSoldier]

are you sure the uruk hai are cross breed between human and orc.As far as i remember from the books there were such cross breeds but they were rather strange dark skinned ugly humans.

[Landkreuzer ratte]

are you sure the uruk hai are cross breed between human and orc.As far as i remember from the books there were such cross breeds but they were rather strange dark skinned ugly humans.

I can't remember that.

[BulSoldier]

Well at the end of the book SPOILER when the hobbits return to the shire the guys with saruman (sharki) were half men half orcs.I dont have the book with me at the moment to check it.Also there was one guiy in the bree that too was such half orc half hyman.

[Mithrandir]

Well, Saruman infused his Uruk-Hai with magic, so they're not quite the same.

[nic1794]

in the movie. ( which is alot different then the book) the uruk-hai were pretty much made by "factories" not actual breeding.
but i do remember seeing uruks in relations with mordor.
and uruk hai didnt pop up untill saurman created them.

[shinsengumi]

Warning: much text to follow ^^

Monsignor el Doxe di Venezia brings up an interesting question that is actually not clearly answered in the literature. Let me preface my comments by noting that -- in general -- I agree with those who consider the Uruk-hai to be a race unique to Isengard.

The Professor indicates that the term uruk refers to a race of particularly strong warrior-orcs that first emerged -- as the Doge pointed out -- during the latter Third Age. Contrasts are clearly drawn between the lesser orcs of the Misty Mountains (which Tolkien simply refers to as orcs) and the black uruk of Mordor and Isengard throughout the Lord of the Rings. See, for example, this passage from the Appendices:

Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'.

As for the Uruk-hai, within the Lord of the Rings trilogy itself, the term Uruk-hai is used exclusively (unless my memory fails me) to refer to the elite uruk of Isengard who, by whatever craft of Saruman, can travel freely during beneath the sun.

It is in other writings (older drafts and unpublished works), however, that things begin to get murky. In the Battles of the Fords of Isen, for example, Tolkien refers to the warriors of Isengard as uruks. This is not in itself problematic, except for the fact that Christopher Tolkien makes a note in the index entry for "Uruks" which essentially equates the two terms. This text reads as follows:

Uruks: Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of orcs of great size and strength.

How can we reconcile this discrepancy? In my opinion, the Lord of the Rings always takes precedence over other sources. Indeed, no other work was as complete at the time of the Professor's death; the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales were compilations hastily compiled posthumously by Christopher Tolkien following his father's death, and it was not until the Histories that serious study was applied to the many different drafts and unpublished works that J.R.R. Tolkien left. Furthermore, while Christopher Tolkien may be an authority on all matters Tolkien, I personally do not believe his commentary can trump that which is printed (or implied) in the finalized text of the Lord of the Rings.

Finally, as much as I am loath to consider the films as a reference when considering matters of theme and canon, in the films -- which we rely upon here for visual reference -- the Uruk-hai are clearly indicated as being forces hailing from Orthanc distinct from all other orcs, be they from Moria or Mordor. Because of what is indicated in the literature and what we have been presented in the films, I see no valid reason -- whether for reasons of theme or gameplay -- to provide Mordor with Uruk-hai, particularly when it can call upon trolls for extra muscle.

[ace4455]

in the movie where frodo was captured and put in the tower of orcs, there were two orcs, a big one and a small one. The big one might be an uruk while the small one just an orc.

The two breeds always fought because the uruks always called orcs maggots, meaning they are a lot smaller than them.

[The Doge of Venice]

ace4455 took the words right out of my mouth there, that tower battle did have Uruks vs normal warrior orcs. I have heard reference to the black orcs of Mordor which are supposed to be the strongest of the mordor orcs. From what I've seen my conclusion would be that the Uruks of Mordor are a little shorter then men with longer arms where as Isengards Uruk-hai are man size and nearly identical stature. And I'm still not sure whether Uruk-hai are only of Isengard and the mordor ones are Uruks or whether they're both Uruk-hai and Uruk is just the short form. The uruk should definetly be included as a unit of Mordor as they are a form of orc and would serve well as a decent standard unit sized heavy infantry.


Any official LOTR researchers from the mod have any input?

[Landkreuzer ratte]

in the movie where frodo was captured and put in the tower of orcs, there were two orcs, a big one and a small one. The big one might be an uruk while the small one just an orc.

The two breeds always fought because the uruks always called orcs maggots, meaning they are a lot smaller than them.

I personally think the uruk-hai's and uruks keep them self better than normal orcs due to that they don't like each other so well.

[nic1794]

wow..very through....so i am thinking its like this

snaga<orc<uruk<uruk-hai.

[Jimbe]

how do orcs breed? wait... i don't want to know

[The Big Red 1]

I'm pretty sure Uruk's and Uruk-Hai are different.