Ireland and England

[Geleco]

Similar to my other thread, what are their strengths/weaknesses?

[Landwalker]

I don't have much experience with Ireland, so I can only comment on England: They have one of, if not the, best archer lineup in the game. The longbowmen have been toned down a little, depending on which cocktail of submods you use (I think that, at least in Real Recruitment, they lose Armor-Piercing), but they're still a very potent force and are there throughout the the campaign.

England is also big on heavy infantry. I personally don't think they even make the top five factions for infantry rosters, but it's nevertheless a big part of their armies. Armored Swordsmen are nice, but not spectacular or special. A lot of the specifically English flavor is in the form of two-handers, mostly Billmen, leaving England highly susceptible to anyone using their own strategy against them -- lots of ranged power. England is weak in gunpowder and is weak in cavalry (although Demi Lancers give them a bit of respectable mobility, the roster as a whole is underwhelming), so their armies will typically have little choice but to be slow-moving, infantry-heavy beasts.

Anything I say about Ireland has to be taken with a grain of salt, but looking over their roster a few things jump out at me. Most of their core units are dirt-cheap. However, they are also usually lacking in power compared to, well, everyone else. Ireland looks like they have much more mobility in their armies than England -- Mounted Calivermen, Horseboys, Desi Javelinmen -- so a lot of their tactics would seem to almost necesssarily depend on not getting hit by the full brunt of the enemy's force. Ireland's infantry roster is, on the whole, weak -- Ulster Swordsmen are pretty standard two-handed sword units, with all the inherent vulnerabilities that entails. Muire are few in number, but would be necessary (according to this Honga site, they also frighten nearby enemies, which would make them even more critical). Ireland has a pretty decent archer lineup, with Gaelic Archers and Saethwyr, but I wouldn't expect them to compete with someone like England in a straight shoot-out. On the whole, Ireland strikes me as having a roster that's just too limited to be successful on its own merits.

Cheers.

[Iscariott]

Similar to my other thread, what are their strengths/weaknesses?

England in general(as this depends on what submods you run) has most of its strength in archery. They have several tiers of effective longbowmen. Stake deploying, extreme range longbowmen. They also have useful infantry as you move into the late game, billmen are good at killing cavalry(not so good at absorbing a charge though). Dismounted English Knights give you 2h AP.

Really their main advantage other than longbows is starting position. You're sharing an island with a weak scotland, and sortof ireland.

Ireland gets a few cool unique units. Acess to a mid tier longbow unit. They make good papal fanbois. Most enjoyable ireland game I played involved being the popes special forces.

In battle as ireland you really need 2 things to win. You need to not be facing massed heavy cavalry. You just aren't equipt to deal with that. You also need to have a 'combined arms' force. What little heavy cav you have supported by light cav, javelin skirmishers hitting armored units, archers hitting soft targets, light cav pinning their archers ect.

Which is why I stayed on the Island, and refused to sustain a major land war. Spam piety, get the pope to like you. Handle your wars through crusade. It's really not productive to be hated and ireland. Hell i think i bought off england eventually. My longbows were good against say france, but no good against england so why bother fighting the neighbor with the better bows lol.

[Sherwood]

England - Amazing archers, good infantry (although not very diverse and lack good pikes) and average horses (although knight chapters largely make up for this) and the usual lack of horse archers western factions have. They also have a large economic advantage compared to many countries with all of the British Isle provinces able to build ports.. They do have pretty poor militias though.

Ireland... they have a lot of diversity. Good skirmishing horses (horseboys and mounted calivers except they both have a high tech tree requirement) acceptable heavy cavalry. They lack crossbows, but have good firearm, javelin and longbow missile troops. Infantry is good, except they lack good pikes. Acceptable artillery as well.

Their biggest downside is the fact that they start off so weak. If you're smart though, you can take dublin and caernarvon pretty quickly... and have enough money to convert Ireland's northern castle to a city. The only place to expand after that without getting the pope pissed off at you is north western france, but then you'll be at odds with as many as 3 enemies.

My advice is wait for scottland or england to get excommunicated, and try and cause some of Englands towns to rebel with assassins and spies (mainly Exeter). However, once you capture the British Isles the rest of the game is pretty smooth sailing and plays out a lot like England/Scottland with different units.

[TheLastPrivate]

Irish Ridiers are extremely underestimated by most people. They are cheap but come with ap and respectable charge.

[Geleco]

How about Scotland? How would they fare against the other 2?

[Landwalker]

Scotland has some definite advantages and disadvantages relative to the other two. They have an extensive pike roster, making them well-equipped to countering enemy cavalry (no less than four different pike units: Highland Pikemen, Noble Pikemen, Scots Pike Militia, and Heavy Pike Militia). However, they probably have the weakest cavalry for themselves amongst those three factions--for anything past Feudal Knights they are reliant on crusader knights. Scotland is beholden to its infantry. In addition to the pikes, they have solid heavy infantry -- Noble Swordsmen filling the sword-and-board role competently, Highland Nobles serving as a respectable (if not very heavily armored) two-handers.

However, Scotland has some severe vulnerabilities. Almost all of their infantry is two-handed, whether pikes or swords. Only Noble Swordsmen, and the unarmored spear militia and highlanders, carry shields. This, combined with their weak cavalry, make Scotland one of the most tempting archery targets in the game. And although Scotland has a decent ranged roster (Highland Archers, Noble Highland Archers, Scots Guard, and Calivermen), only one of those units has a reasonably long range (Scots Guard at 200). Scotland won't win a straight shootout, and they don't have the cavalry strength to stop their enemies from doing the same. That said, if Scotland can primarily focus on ranged-weak units (like the Scandinavian countries), they are adequately equipped.

Cheers.

[Notimeforaname]

Ireland is amazingly powerful. Amazingly. They have one of the best western rosters EVER@@@!!!11!!!!!.

Infantry:
Early on the Ostmen are well shielded swordsmen that can wear light mail.
Ulster swordsmen can upgrade all the way to partial plate making them relevant all the way to the end of the game.
Muire are just fine men-at-arms. Upgrading to full plate. SS has them at normal heavy infantry strength of 120 men on huge scale.
Spear Militia... everyone has them. They are your only cavalry defense that is not on a horse

Archery:
Quite possibly the only major weakness.
Gaelic Archers are just peasants with a shield and bow.
Saethwyr have an upkeep of 300 making them impractical if you haven't got major income to support them.
Javelinmen are pretty hardcore and have an excellent attack. Comparable to Almughavars.

Cavalry:
The real Irish strength. They have one of the best Western cavalry rosters.
Horseboys are a good javcav unit
Hobiguir are at least as good as Mounted Sergeants and have an AP axe for melee.
Ridire are better than Mailed Knights
Lord's Retinue are better than Chiv Knights.
Then there are Mounted Calivermen...

They have no real late period infantry except calivermen. Who cares. Get mercenary pikes and supplement with your dismounted men-at-arms.

[Skooma Addict]

England has no real weakness. They're very good all around but their archers are to feared more then anything else. Oh yes, and of coarse they have billmen as well.

[Shabby_Ronin]

i find it impossible to argue there are any advantages to irelands units over englands.

i played them because i have irish blood and wanted to crush england, but once i did i found little motivation to move out of the isles.

in a base answer to your original question, england is strong, ireland is weak...but that matters little when your talking about defeating the ai.

both are fun to use, i always prefer starting small, so i like ireland...if i had to choose. but that has nothing to do with unit balance.

[Iscariott]

i find it impossible to argue there are any advantages to irelands units over englands.

i played them because i have irish blood and wanted to crush england, but once i did i found little motivation to move out of the isles.

in a base answer to your original question, england is strong, ireland is weak...but that matters little when your talking about defeating the ai.

both are fun to use, i always prefer starting small, so i like ireland...if i had to choose. but that has nothing to do with unit balance.

They have better cav. More diversity and such. Just nothing that really trumps retinue+ longbows.

[Belphegor]

Many people say that Ireland is weak, useless etc. Not true, Ireland has a specific roster.

When fighting in the open their great mobility allows you to outmanouver your enemies. Have you heavy infantry tie up the main opposition for a while and then wham - hammer and anvil tactics.

Your light and missle cavalary can cause havoc between the opposing cavalary, but the main abnd biggest problem is the lack of spears which you have to compensate through mercenaries as this is your biggest weakness.

England on the other hand is a steamroller - I don't play with them as there are few challanges, when playing with England.


Scotland lack manouverbility but they are aimed at stopping you. Their great use of pikes can stop both infantry and cavalary and they have good lategame archers and as well as infantry. But their absolute weakness is cavalary as you'll be stuck with Feudal knights and Bodyguards for most of the game

[Spartan90]

England's strength, as explained, lies in its ability to outshoot its opponents with their superior strength in archery. Longbowmen are without questions the strongest archers in the game, and are easily available from the get-go. Their infantry is generally very heavy, and relies on two-handed units for the bulk of their armies.

Ireland are a lot more mobile than the English, but it's hard to fully use this to your advantage due to the hilly, mountainous areas of the Isles. But this makes it easier to defend on the flatter terrains of Ireland, or you could provide and equal challenge to the Knights of France.

Ireland's roster is quite unique and diverse, but it's biggest one-of-a-kind unit is the Mounted Cavilermen.

In conclusion, England's more solidified, Christian roster is a power that can steamroll through most infantry-based factions. Their position is a lot stronger and more wealthy, whereas Ireland starts off very poor, and will have to watch and spend every florin wisely.

[Mune]

England

Pros:
- 3 Longbow units with good range and AP ability. They are available starting at Castle (one more unit available each for Fortress and Citadel). Each new version offers an extra attack point (starting at 4) and better armor and melee abilties.
- Instead of Spear Militia, they have Levy Spearmen. These units are much the same, except that they are built in both Castles and Towns/Cities and have the 'Shield Wall' ability.
- Generally well-rounded and comparable selection of heavy cavalry and melee infantry compared to your average Western faction.
- Starting position provides a good income and easy defense once all of Britain and Ireland are conquiered.

Cons:
- Some other factions can match the power of English longbow units, but generally only at the highest tier.
- Many western factions can either match or exceed their melee infantry and cavalry units, but in most cases not significantly so.
- No ranged or light cavalry, except Mounted Seargents (which you may or may not consider to be light cavalry).
- No javelins or crossbows (longbow makes a good substitute though).

Ireland

Pros:
- Mounted Calivermen give Ireland the unique aspect of having a cavalry gunpowder unit, which few other factions enjoy. Undeniably a very useful and powerful unit, but not really any better (or worse) than the other mounted gunpowder units.
- Early access to powerful light cavalry. What makes them powerful is the fact that their alternate weapon is an axe, which gives them an edge against the generally heavier-armored cavalry and infantry of the other western factions.
- Deisi Javelinmen have the 'hide anywhere' ability, making them useful in a number of ambush-type scenarios.
- Their top-tier archer unit is an AP longbow type which is comparable to Englands mid/top tier longbow unit.
- Muire's have the 'scare foot unit' ability, as well as 2HP and generally good stats.
- Reasonably good sword and axe infantry units, but not as well armored as most other western factions.
- Starting position provides a good income and easy defense once all of Britain and Ireland are conquiered (same as England and Scotland).

Cons:
- Generally less armor than their neighboring western factions throughout their unit selection.
- Their top-tier archer unit (Saethwyr, or something like that) is quite expensive compared to England's longbow units.
- Muire (Ireland's only real well-armored infantry unit) come in a half-sized stack.
- Fewer units in the Irish roster overall compared to most other factions.
- Somewhat difficult starting position, with only 2 fairly undeveloped settlements.

[Landwalker]

Actually, depending on which submod soup you're using, spear militia can also be built in both castles and cities (I'm using Real Recruitment, and this is the case). Although they don't have the shield wall ability, which is always nice. Unfortunately I don't think we know exactly what the OP is using.

Cheers.