View Poll Results: Is there significant difference between the US presidential candidantes' proposed foreign policy?

Voters
25. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, there is, and I will not just vote but also post this difference.

    18 72.00%
  • No, there isn't a significant difference.

    7 28.00%
  • I don't know. / I abstain.

    0 0%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 38

Thread: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Icon1 Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    I'm quite confused.

    I read over this wiki article, comparing the proposed foreign policies of McCain and Obama, and I cannot say one or another would make a difference.
    - both candidates would continue the so-called "War on Terror"
    - both candidates handle the Israeli-Arab conflict unilaterally (giving inconsiderate full-support to Israel)
    - both candidates regard Iran as a threat
    - both candidates call for more assertive action in Sudan
    - both candidates support the limitation of nuclear weapons
    - both candidates would expand foreign aid
    - both candidates support the presence of US troops in Iraq
    (Yes, even Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Obama
    if the definition of success is so high: no traces of Al Qaida and no possibility of reconstitution, a highly-effective Iraqi government, a democratic multi-ethnic, multi-sectarian functioning democracy with no Iranian influence, at least not of the kind that we don't like, then that portends the possibility of us staying for 20 or 30 years
    source of this quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War.)

    The only difference I see is that Obama is undecided on many foreign policy issues, including China, North Korea, the role of UN etc., or changes his political opinion rather often, which may indicate thoughtlessness, or may be just a tactical trick.

    I think this is the most important issue of the US Presidential elections, as it is not about the domestic policies of a country in the first hand - at least for the rest of the world, which means the 95 % of the world population.

    This election is about how global governance (including diplomatic and political negotiations, military operations, financial regulations etc.) will be managed in the next 4 years. The US has far greater power (thus responsibility) in this aspect, than any other country in the world, let me not explain why.

    It looks like the rest of the world doesn't get a real choice, nonetheless this decision affects them just as much as the US citizens.

    edit: sorry for the typo in the poll question
    Last edited by Aldgarkalaughskel; October 20, 2008 at 04:35 AM.

  2. #2
    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mining Country, Outback Australia.
    Posts
    19,332

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidantes' proposed foreign policy?

    They both support mega-billion dollar corporations in the US, yeah? And have their big business lobbyists licking at their nether-regions every day of the week, and donating money to their political parties.

    So no. They aren't too different.

    Nor will they ever be again, until big-business and 'economics' is removed from the equation during an election period. Funny how election periods get longer and longer too (via the party nomination procedures) and financial disasters that seem to screw lives up wait until just before an election before they miraculously appear.

    This film-maker is very condescending, and assumes we are all stupid, but makes a valid, and quite obvious point that many seem to miss.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=506_1224207761
    Last edited by boofhead; October 20, 2008 at 04:16 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidantes' proposed foreign policy?

    Obama would meet with certain leaders without preconditions, and does not view having diplomatic talks as legitimization. McCain does view having diplomatic talks as legitimization, and would not meet with the same leaders without preconditions.

  4. #4
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    The Weimar Republic
    Posts
    9,512

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidantes' proposed foreign policy?

    Its not a race when both horses are owned by the same party.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

  5. #5

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidantes' proposed foreign policy?

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    They both support mega-billion dollar corporations in the US, yeah? And have their big business lobbyists licking at their nether-regions every day of the week, and donating money to their political parties.

    So no. They aren't too different.

    Nor will they ever be again, until big-business and 'economics' is removed from the equation during an election period. Funny how election periods get longer and longer too (via the party nomination procedures) and financial disasters that seem to screw lives up wait until just before an election before they miraculously appear.
    QFT.

    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri View Post
    Its not a race when both horses are owned by the same party.
    QFT.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vequor View Post
    Obama would meet with certain leaders without preconditions, and does not view having diplomatic talks as legitimization. McCain does view having diplomatic talks as legitimization, and would not meet with the same leaders without preconditions.
    Do you really beleive that the leader of the most powerful nation on Earth would get into a tea club chitchat? And let's be specific, Obama regards Iran as a threat, how do you think he would talk with the leaders of Iran or other "rogues states"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obama
    ...we hear eerie echoes of the run-up to the war in Iraq in the way that the President and Vice President talk about Iran. ... They issue veiled threats. They suggest that the time for diplomacy and pressure is running out when we haven't even tried direct diplomacy. Well George Bush and Dick Cheney must hear — loud and clear — from the American people and the Congress: you don't have our support, and you don't have our authorization for another war.[
    Obama urged Iran to "end its illicit nuclear program" or face increased pressure from a unified international community, saying that the Iranian government should not "wait for the next president" before accepting proposals to resolve the current stalemate with Western countries.
    Read the whole article here please:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...ack_Obama#Iran
    Last edited by Aldgarkalaughskel; October 20, 2008 at 04:25 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    It would be interesting to know the opinion of others, so I bump this thread to front-page.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    Not necessarily a tea club as you call it, but I do believe they would meet.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vequor View Post
    Not necessarily a tea club as you call it, but I do believe they would meet.

    SO ing what? Weather you like it or not, Iran is a real country with a real government. Telling them to stand in the corner and not talk to us changes absolutely nothing about the situation between our nations. That the negative limelight doesnt spot onto McCain for his bushian nonsense "i wont talk to bad guys unless they agree to what i want before we talk about" diplomacy is pathetic.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    It's always the same BS: people play up their differences on minutae like abortion or gay marriage (honestly, who gives a about something which will affect like 4% of the domestic population) just to hide the fact that they are sleeping in the same bed when it comes to making choices that affect everyone else.

    The sad part is that no American ever calls them out on it. I've never seen anyone at a town hall debate say "So what makes your foreign policy different?" It's really the ignorant voter's fault that they can be so easily manipulated so easily.
    Last edited by Romano-Dacis; October 20, 2008 at 09:45 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    There is none, really.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  11. #11
    Mythre's Avatar Jack of all trades,
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    7,678

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    The main difference is McCain is more hawkish and Obama is more dovish.
    A wise man in times of peace prepares for war. -Horace
    GSTK: King Geoffry Wilson III - 35















    A wise man in times of peace prepares for war. -Horace
    In war, numbers alone confer no advantage. Do not advance relying on sheer military power. - Sun Tzu
    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -Santayana

  12. #12
    YuriVII's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Texian Cossack Hetmanate
    Posts
    3,007

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    The townhall meeting questions are screened. So all those "inconvinient" questions are filtered and we get some middle american talking about how they are scared of fags.

  13. #13
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    18,577

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    There are real differences, but this will not matter once one is elected and surrounded by more experienced advisors on a specific action. They have only a thin advisory staff on actual policy questions -- the bulk of their advisors are campaign advisors.

    This forum and perhaps even the election seems more focused on foreign affairs than the domestic areas. This may be because one candidate or the other is pushing this. More likely, are avoiding the domestic side of the office. The reality is that domestic policy is a huge part of the presidency. We are in for a rough ride and some very rude surprises with neither candidate placing emphasis on domestic issues.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    Well, even with their well rounded team of advisers, let's say this happened....

    A US Navy destroyer just outside Venzuelan territorial waters picks up a call from an American charter fishing vessel. The American ship is trying to get into international waters as quickly as it can, being pursued rapidly by an aging but aggresive Venzuelan gunboat.

    The mayday calls from the American ship claim the Venz. ship suddenly attacked them, and they thought they were in international waters. but now know they are not. These people are getting very panicky because the Venz. ship is closing in and has fired a couple shots across the bow.

    In garbled Spanish (the Navy ship doesn't have a fluent Spanish speaker on board), the Americans have been able to determine that the Venz. "might" be claiming the innocent vessel is actually a drugrunner.

    This information is now in the hands of our next President.

    The way I see things unfolding is this.......

    John McCain: "Have those navy boys take that damn piece of pig gumboat down NOW!!!"

    Barack Obama: "Position the destroyer between our ship and the gunboat. Make it clear to the gunboat to break off or risk their destruction. Get me that Chavez guy on the phone!"
    "oooh a gypsy wind is blowing warm tonight, sky is starlit and the time is right. Now you're telling me you have to go...before you do there's something you should know." - Bob Seger

    Freedom is the distance between church and state.

  15. #15
    Mythre's Avatar Jack of all trades,
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    7,678

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    Or you can blow up the gunboat then pick up the American vessel to see whether or not it is a smuggler........


    On a more serious note, I do not think McCain is a wild guns blazing guy. Sure he is more hawkish, but he is not an idiot.
    Also there is one problem with that scenario... it most likely would not reach the president in time for him to make a decision. The decision would be made by the commander on the spot.
    A wise man in times of peace prepares for war. -Horace
    GSTK: King Geoffry Wilson III - 35















    A wise man in times of peace prepares for war. -Horace
    In war, numbers alone confer no advantage. Do not advance relying on sheer military power. - Sun Tzu
    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -Santayana

  16. #16
    Protector Domesticus
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    Since no one read the thread I posted in the Political Academy I think i'll just graft it onto this one:

    The Obama Foreign Policy Stance
    Source
    By George Friedman

    Barack Obama is the Democratic candidate for president. His advisers in foreign policy are generally Democrats. Together they carry with them an institutional memory of the Democratic Party’s approach to foreign policy, and are an expression of the complexity and divisions of that approach. Like their Republican counterparts, in many ways they are going to be severely constrained as to what they can do both by the nature of the global landscape and American resources. But to some extent, they will also be constrained and defined by the tradition they come from. Understanding that tradition and Obama’s place is useful in understanding what an Obama presidency would look like in foreign affairs.

    The most striking thing about the Democratic tradition is that it presided over the beginnings of the three great conflicts that defined the 20th century: Woodrow Wilson and World War I, Franklin Delano Roosevelt and World War II, and Harry S. Truman and the Cold War. (At this level of analysis, we will treat the episodes of the Cold War such as Korea, Vietnam or Grenada as simply subsets of one conflict.) This is most emphatically not to say that had Republicans won the presidency in 1916, 1940 or 1948, U.S. involvement in those wars could have been avoided.

    Patterns in Democratic Foreign Policy

    But it does give us a framework for considering persistent patterns of Democratic foreign policy. When we look at the conflicts, four things become apparent.

    First, in all three conflicts, Democrats postponed the initiation of direct combat as long as possible. In only one, World War I, did Wilson decide to join the war without prior direct attack. Roosevelt maneuvered near war but did not enter the war until after Pearl Harbor. Truman also maneuvered near war but did not get into direct combat until after the North Korean invasion of South Korea. Indeed, even Wilson chose to go to war to protect free passage on the Atlantic. More important, he sought to prevent Germany from defeating the Russians and the Anglo-French alliance and to stop the subsequent German domination of Europe, which appeared possible. In other words, the Democratic approach to war was reactive. All three presidents reacted to events on the surface, while trying to shape them underneath the surface.

    Second, all three wars were built around coalitions. The foundation of the three wars was that other nations were at risk and that the United States used a predisposition to resist (Germany in the first two wars, the Soviet Union in the last) as a framework for involvement. The United States under Democrats did not involve itself in war unilaterally. At the same time, the United States under Democrats made certain that the major burdens were shared by allies. Millions died in World War I, but the United States suffered 100,000 dead. In World War II, the United States suffered 500,000 dead in a war where perhaps 50 million soldiers and civilians died. In the Cold War, U.S. losses in direct combat were less than 100,000 while the losses to Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans and others towered over that toll. The allies had a complex appreciation of the United States. On the one hand, they were grateful for the U.S. presence. On the other hand, they resented the disproportionate amounts of blood and effort shed. Some of the roots of anti-Americanism are to be found in this strategy.

    Third, each of these wars ended with a Democratic president attempting to create a system of international institutions designed to limit the recurrence of war without directly transferring sovereignty to those institutions. Wilson championed the League of Nations. Roosevelt the United Nations. Bill Clinton, who presided over most of the post-Cold War world, constantly sought international institutions to validate U.S. actions. Thus, when the United Nations refused to sanction the Kosovo War, he designated NATO as an alternative international organization with the right to approve conflict. Indeed, Clinton championed a range of multilateral organizations during the 1990s, including everything from the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, and later the World Trade Organization. All these presidents were deeply committed to multinational organizations to define permissible and impermissible actions.

    And fourth, there is a focus on Europe in the Democratic view of the world. Roosevelt regarded Germany as the primary threat instead of the Pacific theater in World War II. And in spite of two land wars in Asia during the Cold War, the centerpiece of strategy remained NATO and Europe. The specific details have evolved over the last century, but the Democratic Party — and particularly the Democratic foreign policy establishment — historically has viewed Europe as a permanent interest and partner for the United States.

    Thus, the main thrust of the Democratic tradition is deeply steeped in fighting wars, but approaches this task with four things in mind:

    1. Wars should not begin until the last possible moment and ideally should be initiated by the enemy.
    2. Wars must be fought in a coalition with much of the burden borne by partners.
    3. The outcome of wars should be an institutional legal framework to manage the peace, with the United States being the most influential force within this multilateral framework.
    4. Any such framework must be built on a trans-Atlantic relationship.

    Democratic Party Fractures

    That is one strand of Democratic foreign policy. A second strand emerged in the context of the Vietnam War. That war began under the Kennedy administration and was intensified by Lyndon Baines Johnson, particularly after 1964. The war did not go as expected. As the war progressed, the Democratic Party began to fragment. There were three factions involved in this.

    The first faction consisted of foreign policy professionals and politicians who were involved in the early stages of war planning but turned against the war after 1967 when it clearly diverged from plans. The leading political figure of this faction was Robert F. Kennedy, who initially supported the war but eventually turned against it.

    The second faction was more definitive. It consisted of people on the left wing of the Democratic Party — and many who went far to the left of the Democrats. This latter group not only turned against the war, it developed a theory of the U.S. role in the war that as a mass movement was unprecedented in the century. The view (it can only be sketched here) maintained that the United States was an inherently imperialist power. Rather than the benign image that Wilson, Roosevelt and Truman had of their actions, this faction reinterpreted American history going back into the 19th century as violent, racist and imperialist (in the most extreme faction’s view). Just as the United States annihilated the Native Americans, the United States was now annihilating the Vietnamese.

    A third, more nuanced, faction argued that rather than an attempt to contain Soviet aggression, the Cold War was actually initiated by the United States out of irrational fear of the Soviets and out of imperialist ambitions. They saw the bombing of Hiroshima as a bid to intimidate the Soviet Union rather than an effort to end World War II, and the creation of NATO as having triggered the Cold War.

    These three factions thus broke down into Democratic politicians such as RFK and George McGovern (who won the presidential nomination in 1972), radicals in the street who were not really Democrats, and revisionist scholars who for the most part were on the party’s left wing.

    Ultimately, the Democratic Party split into two camps. Hubert Humphrey led the first along with Henry Jackson, who rejected the left’s interpretation of the U.S. role in Vietnam and claimed to speak for the Wilson-FDR-Truman strand in Democratic politics. McGovern led the second. His camp largely comprised the party’s left wing, which did not necessarily go as far as the most extreme critics of that tradition but was extremely suspicious of anti-communist ideology, the military and intelligence communities, and increased defense spending. The two camps conducted extended political warfare throughout the 1970s.

    The presidency of Jimmy Carter symbolized the tensions. He came to power wanting to move beyond Vietnam, slashing and changing the CIA, controlling defense spending and warning the country of “an excessive fear of Communism.” But following the fall of the Shah of Iran and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, he allowed Zbigniew Brzezinski, his national security adviser and now an adviser to Obama, to launch a guerrilla war against the Soviets using Islamist insurgents from across the Muslim world in Afghanistan. Carter moved from concern with anti-Communism to coalition warfare against the Soviets by working with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Afghan resistance fighters.

    Carter was dealing with the realities of U.S. geopolitics, but the tensions within the Democratic tradition shaped his responses. During the Clinton administration, these internal tensions subsided to a great degree. In large part this was because there was no major war, and the military action that did occur — as in Haiti and Kosovo — was framed as humanitarian actions rather than as the pursuit of national power. That soothed the anti-war Democrats to a great deal, since their perspective was less pacifistic than suspicious of using war to enhance national power.

    The Democrats Since 9/11

    Since the Democrats have not held the presidency during the last eight years, judging how they might have responded to events is speculative. Statements made while in opposition are not necessarily predictive of what an administration might do. Nevertheless, Obama’s foreign policy outlook was shaped by the last eight years of Democrats struggling with the U.S.-jihadist war.

    The Democrats responded to events of the last eight years as they traditionally do when the United States is attacked directly: The party’s anti-war faction contracted and the old Democratic tradition reasserted itself. This was particularly true of the decision to go to war in Afghanistan. Obviously, the war was a response to an attack and, given the mood of the country after 9/11, was an unassailable decision. But it had another set of characteristics that made it attractive to the Democrats. The military action in Afghanistan was taking place in the context of broad international support and within a coalition forming at all levels, from on the ground in Afghanistan to NATO and the United Nations. Second, U.S. motives did not appear to involve national self-interest, like increasing power or getting oil. It was not a war for national advantage, but a war of national self-defense.

    The Democrats were much less comfortable with the Iraq war than they were with Afghanistan. The old splits reappeared, with many Democrats voting for the invasion and others against. There were complex and mixed reasons why each Democrat voted the way they did — some strategic, some purely political, some moral. Under the pressure of voting on the war, the historically fragile Democratic consensus broke apart, not so much in conflict as in disarray. One of the most important reasons for this was the sense of isolation from major European powers — particularly the French and Germans, whom the Democrats regarded as fundamental elements of any coalition. Without those countries, the Democrats regarded the United States as diplomatically isolated.

    The intraparty conflict came later. As the war went badly, the anti-war movement in the party re-energized itself. They were joined later by many who had formerly voted for the war but were upset by the human and material cost and by the apparent isolation of the United States and so on. Both factions of the Democratic Party had reasons to oppose the Iraq war even while they supported the Afghan war.

    Understanding Obama’s Foreign Policy

    It is in light of this distinction that we can begin to understand Obama’s foreign policy. On Aug. 1, Obama said the following: “It is time to turn the page. When I am President, we will wage the war that has to be won, with a comprehensive strategy with five elements: getting out of Iraq and on to the right battlefield in Afghanistan and Pakistan; developing the capabilities and partnerships we need to take out the terrorists and the world’s most deadly weapons; engaging the world to dry up support for terror and extremism; restoring our values; and securing a more resilient homeland.”

    Obama’s view of the Iraq war is that it should not have been fought in the first place, and that the current success in the war does not justify it or its cost. In this part, he speaks to the anti-war tradition in the party. He adds that Afghanistan and Pakistan are the correct battlefields, since this is where the attack emanated from. It should be noted that on several occasions Obama has pointed to Pakistan as part of the Afghan problem, and has indicated a willingness to intervene there if needed while demanding Pakistani cooperation. Moreover, Obama emphasizes the need for partnerships — for example, coalition partners — rather than unilateral action in Afghanistan and globally.

    Responding to attack rather than pre-emptive attack, coalition warfare and multinational postwar solutions are central to Obama’s policy in the Islamic world. He therefore straddles the divide within the Democratic Party. He opposes the war in Iraq as pre-emptive, unilateral and outside the bounds of international organizations while endorsing the Afghan war and promising to expand it.

    Obama’s problem would be applying these principles to the emerging landscape. He shaped his foreign policy preferences when the essential choices remained within the Islamic world — between dealing with Iraq and Afghanistan simultaneously versus focusing on Afghanistan primarily. After the Russian invasion of Georgia, Obama would face a more complex set of choices between the Islamic world and dealing with the Russian challenge.

    Obama’s position on Georgia tracked with traditional Democratic approaches:

    “Georgia’s economic recovery is an urgent strategic priority that demands the focused attention of the United States and our allies. That is why Senator Biden and I have called for $1 billion in reconstruction assistance to help the people of Georgia in this time of great trial. I also welcome NATO’s decision to establish a NATO-Georgia Commission and applaud the new French and German initiatives to continue work on these issues within the EU. The Bush administration should call for a U.S.-EU-Georgia summit in September that focuses on strategies for preserving Georgia’s territorial integrity and advancing its economic recovery.”

    Obama avoided militaristic rhetoric and focused on multinational approaches to dealing with the problem, particularly via NATO and the European Union. In this and in Afghanistan, he has returned to a Democratic fundamental: the centrality of the U.S.-European relationship. In this sense, it is not accidental that he took a preconvention trip to Europe. It was both natural and a signal to the Democratic foreign policy establishment that he understands the pivotal position of Europe.

    This view on multilateralism and NATO is summed up in a critical statement by Obama in a position paper:

    “Today it’s become fashionable to disparage the United Nations, the World Bank, and other international organizations. In fact, reform of these bodies is urgently needed if they are to keep pace with the fast-moving threats we face. Such real reform will not come, however, by dismissing the value of these institutions, or by bullying other countries to ratify changes we have drafted in isolation. Real reform will come because we convince others that they too have a stake in change — that such reforms will make their world, and not just ours, more secure.

    “Our alliances also require constant management and revision if they are to remain effective and relevant. For example, over the last 15 years, NATO has made tremendous strides in transforming from a Cold War security structure to a dynamic partnership for peace.

    “Today, NATO’s challenge in Afghanistan has become a test case, in the words of Dick Lugar, of whether the alliance can ‘overcome the growing discrepancy between NATO’s expanding missions and its lagging capabilities.’”

    Obama’s European Problem

    The last paragraph represents the key challenge to Obama’s foreign policy, and where his first challenge would come from. Obama wants a coalition with Europe and wants Europe to strengthen itself. But Europe is deeply divided, and averse to increasing its defense spending or substantially increasing its military participation in coalition warfare. Obama’s multilateralism and Europeanism will quickly encounter the realities of Europe.

    This would immediately affect his jihadist policy. At this point, Obama’s plan for a 16-month drawdown from Iraq is quite moderate, and the idea of focusing on Afghanistan and Pakistan is a continuation of Bush administration policy. But his challenge would be to increase NATO involvement. There is neither the will nor the capability to substantially increase Europe’s NATO participation in Afghanistan.

    This problem would be even more difficult in dealing with Russia. Europe has no objection in principle to the Afghan war; it merely lacks the resources to substantially increase its presence there. But in the case of Russia, there is no European consensus. The Germans are dependent on the Russians for energy and do not want to risk that relationship; the French are more vocal but lack military capability, though they have made efforts to increase their commitment to Afghanistan. Obama says he wants to rely on multilateral agencies to address the Russian situation. That is possible diplomatically, but if the Russians press the issue further, as we expect, a stronger response will be needed. NATO will be unlikely to provide that response.

    Obama would therefore face the problem of shifting the focus to Afghanistan and the added problem of balancing between an Islamic focus and a Russian focus. This will be a general problem of U.S. diplomacy. But Obama as a Democrat would have a more complex problem. Averse to unilateral actions and focused on Europe, Obama would face his first crisis in dealing with the limited support Europe can provide.

    That will pose serious problems in both Afghanistan and Russia, which Obama would have to deal with. There is a hint in his thoughts on this when he says, “And as we strengthen NATO, we should also seek to build new alliances and relationships in other regions important to our interests in the 21st century.” The test would be whether these new coalitions will differ from, and be more effective than, the coalition of the willing.

    Obama would face similar issues in dealing with the Iranians. His approach is to create a coalition to confront the Iranians and force them to abandon their nuclear program. He has been clear that he opposes that program, although less clear on other aspects of Iranian foreign policy. But again, his solution is to use a coalition to control Iran. That coalition disintegrated to a large extent after Russia and China both indicated that they had no interest in sanctions.

    But the coalition Obama plans to rely on will have to be dramatically revived by unknown means, or an alternative coalition must be created, or the United States will have to deal with Afghanistan and Pakistan unilaterally. This reality places a tremendous strain on the core principles of Democratic foreign policy. To reconcile the tensions, he would have to rapidly come to an understanding with the Europeans in NATO on expanding their military forces. Since reaching out to the Europeans would be among his first steps, his first test would come early.

    The Europeans would probably balk, and, if not, they would demand that the United States expand its defense spending as well. Obama has shown no inclination toward doing this. In October 2007, he said the following on defense: “I will cut tens of billions of dollars in wasteful spending. I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems. I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems, and I will institute an independent defense priorities board to ensure that the quadrennial defense review is not used to justify unnecessary spending.”

    Russia, Afghanistan and Defense Spending

    In this, Obama is reaching toward the anti-war faction in his party, which regards military expenditures with distrust. He focused on advanced war-fighting systems, but did not propose cutting spending on counterinsurgency. But the dilemma is that in dealing with both insurgency and the Russians, Obama would come under pressure to do what he doesn’t want to do — namely, increase U.S. defense spending on advanced systems.

    Obama has been portrayed as radical. That is far from the case. He is well within a century-long tradition of the Democratic Party, with an element of loyalty to the anti-war faction. But that element is an undertone to his policy, not its core. The core of his policy would be coalition building and a focus on European allies, as well as the use of multilateral institutions and the avoidance of pre-emptive war. There is nothing radical or even new in these principles. His discomfort with military spending is the only thing that might link him to the party’s left wing.

    The problem he would face is the shifting international landscape, which would make it difficult to implement some of his policies. First, the tremendous diversity of international challenges would make holding the defense budget in check difficult. Second, and more important, is the difficulty of coalition building and multilateral action with the Europeans. Obama thus lacks both the force and the coalition to carry out his missions. He therefore would have no choice but to deal with the Russians while confronting the Afghan/Pakistani question even if he withdrew more quickly than he says he would from Iraq.

    The make-or-break moment for Obama will come early, when he confronts the Europeans. If he can persuade them to take concerted action, including increased defense spending, then much of his foreign policy rapidly falls into place, even if it is at the price of increasing U.S. defense spending. If the Europeans cannot come together (or be brought together) decisively, however, then he will have to improvise.

    Obama would be the first Democrat in this century to take office inheriting a major war. Inheriting an ongoing war is perhaps the most difficult thing for a president to deal with. Its realities are already fixed and the penalties for defeat or compromise already defined. The war in Afghanistan has already been defined by U.S. President George W. Bush’s approach. Rewriting it will be enormously difficult, particularly when rewriting it depends on ending unilateralism and moving toward full coalition warfare when coalition partners are wary.

    Obama’s problems are compounded by the fact that he does not only have to deal with an inherited war, but also a resurgent Russia. And he wants to depend on the same coalition for both. That will be enormously challenging for him, testing his diplomatic skills as well as geopolitical realities. As with all presidents, what he plans to do and what he would do are two different things. But it seems to us that his presidency would be defined by whether he can change the course of U.S.-European relations not by accepting European terms but by persuading them to accommodate U.S. interests.

    An Obama presidency would not turn on this. There is no evidence that he lacks the ability to shift with reality — that he lacks Machiavellian virtue. But it still will be the first and critical test, one handed to him by the complex tensions of Democratic traditions and by a war he did not start.


    The McCain Foregn Policy Stance
    Source
    By George Friedman

    John McCain is the Republican candidate for president. This means he is embedded in the Republican tradition. That tradition has two roots, which are somewhat at odds with each other: One root is found in Theodore Roosevelt’s variety of internationalism, and the other in Henry Cabot Lodge’s opposition to the League of Nations. Those roots still exist in the Republican Party. But accommodations to the reality the Democrats created after World War II — and that Eisenhower, Nixon and, to some extent, Reagan followed — have overlain them. In many ways, the Republican tradition of foreign policy is therefore more complex than the Democratic tradition.

    Roosevelt and the United States as Great Power

    More than any other person, Roosevelt introduced the United States to the idea that it had become a great power. During the Spanish-American War, in which he had enthusiastically participated, the United States took control of the remnants of the Spanish empire. During his presidency a few years later, Roosevelt authorized the first global tour by a U.S. fleet, which was designed to announce the arrival of the United States with authority. The fleet was both impressive and surprising to many great powers, which at the time tended to dismiss the United States.

    For Roosevelt, having the United States take its place among the great powers served two purposes. First, it protected American maritime interests. The United States was a major trading power, so control of the seas was a practical imperative. But there was also an element of deep pride — to the point of ideology. Roosevelt saw the emergence of the United States as a validation of the American experiment with democracy and a testament to America as an exceptional country and regime. Realistic protection of national interest joined forces with an ideology of entitlement. The Panama Canal, which was begun in Roosevelt’s administration, served both interests.

    The Panama Canal highlights the fact that for Roosevelt — heavily influenced by theories of sea power — the Pacific Ocean was at least as important as the Atlantic. The most important imperial U.S. holding at the time was the Pacific territory of the Philippines, which U.S. policy focused on protecting. Also reflecting Roosevelt’s interest in the Pacific, he brokered the peace treaty ending the Russo-Japanese War in 1905 and increased U.S. interests in China. (Overall, the Democratic Party focused on Europe, while the Republican Party showed a greater interest in Asia.)

    The second strand of Republicanism emerged after World War I, when Lodge, a Republican senator, defeated President Woodrow Wilson’s plan for U.S. entry into the League of Nations. Lodge had supported the Spanish-American War and U.S. involvement in World War I, but he opposed league membership because he felt it would compel the United States to undertake obligations it should not commit to. Moreover, he had a deep distrust of the Europeans, whom he believed would drag the United States into another war.

    The foundations of Republican foreign policy early in the 20th century therefore consisted of three elements:

    1. A willingness to engage in foreign policy and foreign wars when this serves U.S. interests.
    2. An unwillingness to enter into multilateral organizations or alliances, as this would deprive the United States of the right to act unilaterally and would commit it to fight on behalf of regimes it might have no interest in defending.
    3. A deep suspicion of the diplomacy of European states grounded on a sense that they were too duplicitous and unstable to trust and that treaties with them would result in burdens on — but not benefits for — the United States.

    Isolationism

    This gave rise to what has been called the “isolationist” strand in the Republican Party, although the term “isolation” is not by itself proper. The isolationists opposed involvement in the diplomacy and politics of Europe. In their view, the U.S. intervention in World War I had achieved little. The Europeans needed to achieve some stable outcome on their own, and the United States did not have the power to impose — or an interest in — that outcome. Underlying this was a belief that, as hostile as the Germans and Soviets were, the French and British were not decidedly better.

    Opposition to involvement in a European war did not translate to indifference to the outcome in the Pacific. The isolationists regarded Japan with deep suspicion, and saw China as a potential ally and counterweight to Japan. They were prepared to support the Chinese and even have some military force present, just as they were prepared to garrison the Philippines.

    There was a consistent position here. First, adherents of this strand believed that waging war on the mainland of Eurasia, either in China or in Europe, was beyond U.S. means and was dangerous. Second, they believed heavily in sea power, and that control of the sea would protect the United States against aggression and protect U.S. maritime trade. This made them suspicious of other maritime powers, including Japan and the United Kingdom. Third, and last, the isolationists deeply opposed alliances that committed the United States to any involvement in war. They felt that the decision to make war should depend on time and place — not a general commitment. Therefore, the broader any proposed alliance involving the United States, the more vigorously the isolationists opposed it.

    Republican foreign policy — a product of the realist and isolationist strands — thus rejected the idea that the United States had a moral responsibility to police the world, while accepting the idea that the United States was morally exceptional. It was prepared to engage in global politics but only when it affected the direct interests of the United States. It regarded the primary interest of the United States to be protecting itself from the wars raging in the world and saw naval supremacy as the means toward that end. It regarded alliances as a potential trap and, in particular, saw the Europeans as dangerous and potentially irresponsible after World War I — and wanted to protect the United States from the consequences of European conflict. In foreign policy, Republicans were realists first, moralists a distant second.

    Following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the German declaration of war on the United States in 1941, the realist strand in Republican foreign policy appeared to be replaced with a new strand. World War II, and Franklin D. Roosevelt’s approach to waging it, created a new reality. Republican isolationists were discredited politically; their realism was seen as a failure to grasp global realities. Moreover, the war was fought within an alliance structure. Parts of that alliance structure were retained, and supplemented grandly, after the war. The United States joined the United Nations, and the means chosen to contain the Soviet Union was an alliance system, with NATO — and hence the Europeans — as the centerpiece.

    Moralism vs. Realism

    The Republicans were torn between two wings after the war. On the one hand, there was Robert Taft, who spoke for the prewar isolationist foreign policy. On the other hand, there was Eisenhower, who had commanded the European coalition and had an utterly different view of alliances and of the Europeans. In the struggle between Taft and Eisenhower for the nomination in 1952, Eisenhower won decisively. The Republican Party reoriented itself fundamentally, or so it appeared.

    The Republicans’ move toward alliances and precommitments was coupled with a shift in moral emphasis. From the unwillingness to take moral responsibility for the world, the Republicans moved toward a moral opposition to the Soviet Union and communism. Both Republicans and Democrats objected morally to the communists. But for the Republicans, moral revulsion justified a sea change in their core foreign policy; anti-communism became a passion that justified changing lesser principles.

    Yet the old Republican realism wasn’t quite dead. At root, Eisenhower was never a moralist. His anti-communism represented a strategic fear of the Soviet Union more than a moral crusade. Indeed, the Republican right condemned him for this. As his presidency progressed, the old realism re-emerged, now in the context of alliance systems.

    But there was a key difference in Eisenhower’s approach to alliances and multilateral institutions: He supported them when they enabled the United States to achieve its strategic ends; he did not support them as ends in themselves. Whereas Eleanor Roosevelt, for example, saw the United Nations as a way to avoid war, Eisenhower saw it as a forum for pursuing American interests. Eisenhower didn’t doubt the idea of American exceptionalism, but his obsession was with the national interest. Thus, when the right wanted him to be more aggressive and liberate Eastern Europe, he was content to contain the Soviets and leave the Eastern Europeans to deal with their own problems.

    The realist version of Republican foreign policy showed itself even more clearly in the Nixon presidency and in Henry Kissinger’s execution of it. The single act that defined this was Nixon’s decision to visit China, meet Mao Zedong, and form what was, in effect, an alliance with Communist China against the Soviet Union. The Vietnam War weakened the United States and strengthened the Soviet Union; China and the United States shared a common interest in containing the Soviet Union. An alliance was in the interests of both Beijing and Washington, and ideology was irrelevant. (The alliance with China also revived the old Republican interest in Asia.)

    With that single action, Nixon and Kissinger reaffirmed the principle that U.S. foreign policy was not about moralism — of keeping the peace or fighting communism — but about pursuing the national interest. Alliances might be necessary, but they did not need to have a moral component.

    While the Democrats were torn between the traditionalists and the anti-war movement, the Republicans became divided between realists who traced their tradition back to the beginning of the century and moralists whose passionate anti-communism began in earnest after World War II. Balancing the idea of foreign policy as a moral mission fighting evil and the idea of foreign policy as the pursuit of national interest and security defined the fault line within the Republican Party.

    Reagan and the Post Cold War World

    Ronald Reagan tried to straddle this fault line. Very much rooted in the moral tradition of his party, he defined the Soviet Union as an “evil empire.” At the same time, he recognized that moralism was insufficient. Foreign policy ends had to be coupled with extremely flexible means. Thus, Reagan maintained the relationship with China. He also played a complex game of negotiation, manipulation and intimidation with the Soviets. To fund the Contras — guerrillas fighting the Marxist government of Nicaragua — his administration was prepared to sell weapons to Iran, which at that time was fighting a war with Iraq. In other words, Reagan embedded the anti-communism of the Republicans of the 1950s with the realism of Nixon and Kissinger. To this, he added a hearty disdain for Europe, where in return he was reviled as a cowboy. The antecedents of this distrust of the Europeans, particularly the French, went back to the World War I era.

    The collapse of communism left the Republicans with a dilemma. The moral mission was gone; realism was all that was left. This was the dilemma that George H. W. Bush had to deal with. Bush was a realist to the core, yet he seemed incapable of articulating that as a principle. Instead, he announced the “New World Order,” which really was a call for multilateral institutions and the transformation of the anti-communist alliance structure into an all-inclusive family of democratic nations. In short, at the close of the Cold War, the first President Bush adopted the essence of Democratic foreign policy. This helps explain Ross Perot’s run for the presidency and Bush’s loss to Bill Clinton. Perot took away the faction of the Republican Party that retained the traditional aversion to multilateralism — in the form of NAFTA, for example.

    It was never clear what form George W. Bush’s foreign policy would have taken without 9/11. After Sept. 11, 2001, Bush tried to re-create Reagan’s foreign policy. Rather than defining the war as a battle against jihadists, he defined it as a battle against terrorism, as if this were the ideological equivalent of communism. He defined an “Axis of Evil” redolent of Reagan’s “Evil Empire.” Within the confines of this moral mission, he attempted to execute a systematic war designed to combat terrorism.

    It is important to bear in mind the complexity of George W. Bush’s foreign policy compared to the simplicity of its stated moral mission, which first was defined as fighting terrorism and later as bringing democracy to the Middle East. In the war in Afghanistan, Bush initially sought and received Russian and Iranian assistance. In Iraq, he ultimately reached an agreement with the Sunni insurgents whom he had formerly fought. In between was a complex array of covert operations, alliances and betrayals, and wars large and small throughout the region. Bush faced a far more complex situation than Reagan did — a situation that, in many instances, lacked solutions by available means.

    McCain: Moralist or Realist?

    Which brings us to McCain and the most important questions he would have to answer in his presidency: To what extent would he adopt an overriding moral mission, and how would he apply available resources to that mission? Would McCain tend toward the Nixon-Kissinger model of a realist Republican president, or to the more moralist Reagan-Bush model?

    Though the answers to these questions will not emerge during campaign season, a President McCain would have to answer them almost immediately. For example, in dealing with the Afghan situation, one of the options will be a deal with the Taliban paralleling the U.S. deal with the Iraqi Sunni insurgents. Would McCain be prepared to take this step in the Reagan-Bush tradition, or would he reject it on rigid moral principles? And would McCain be prepared to recognize a sphere of influence for Russia in the former Soviet Union, or would he reject the concept as violating moral principles of national sovereignty and rights?

    McCain has said the United States should maintain a presence in Iraq for as long as necessary to stabilize the country, although he clearly believes that, with the situation stabilizing, the drawdown of troops can be more rapid. In discussing Afghanistan, it is clear that he sees the need for more troops. But his real focus is on Pakistan, about which he said in July: “We must strengthen local tribes in the border areas who are willing to fight the foreign terrorists there. We must also empower the new civilian government of Pakistan to defeat radicalism with greater support for development, health, and education.”

    McCain understands that the key to dealing with Afghanistan lies in Pakistan, and he implies that solving the problem in Pakistan requires forming a closer relationship with tribes in the Afghan-Pakistani border region. What McCain has not said — and what he cannot say for political and strategic reasons — is how far he would go in making agreements with the Pashtun tribes in the area that have been close collaborators with al Qaeda.

    A similar question comes up in the context of Russia and its relations with other parts of the former Soviet Union. Shortly after the Russian invasion of Georgia, McCain said, “The implications of Russian actions go beyond their threat to the territorial integrity and independence of a democratic Georgia. Russia is using violence against Georgia, in part, to intimidate other neighbors such as Ukraine for choosing to associate with the West and adhering to Western political and economic values. As such, the fate of Georgia should be of grave concern to Americans and all people who welcomed the end of a divided Europe, and the independence of former Soviet republics. The international response to this crisis will determine how Russia manages its relationships with other neighbors.”

    McCain has presented Russia’s actions in moral terms. He also has said international diplomatic action must be taken to deal with Russia, and he has supported NATO expansion. So he has combined a moral approach with a coalition approach built around the Europeans. In short, his public statements draw from moral and multilateral sources. What is not clear is the degree to which he will adhere to realist principles in pursuing these ends. He clearly will not be a Nixon.

    Whether he will be like Reagan, or more like George W. Bush — that is, Reagan without Reagan’s craft — or a rigid moralist indifferent to consequences remains in question.

    It is difficult to believe McCain would adopt the third option. He takes a strong moral stance, but is capable of calibrating his tactics. This is particularly clear when you consider his position on working with the Europeans. In 1999 — quite a ways back in foreign policy terms — McCain said of NATO, “As we approach the 50th anniversary of NATO, the Atlantic Alliance is in pretty bad shape. Our allies are spending far too little on their own defense to maintain the alliance as an effective military force.”

    Since then, Europe’s defense spending has not soared, to say the least. McCain’s August 2008 statement that “NATO’s North Atlantic Council should convene in emergency session to demand a cease-fire and begin discussions on both the deployment of an international peacekeeping force to South Ossetia” must be viewed in this context.

    In this statement, McCain called for a NATO peacekeeping force to South Ossetia. A decade before, he was decrying NATO’s lack of military preparedness, which few dispute is still an extremely significant issue.

    But remember that presidential campaigns are not where forthright strategic thinking should be expected, and moral goals must be subordinate to the realities of power. While McCain would need to define the mix of moralism and realism in his foreign policy, he made his evaluation of NATO’s weakness clear in 1999. Insofar as he believes this evaluation still holds true, he would not have to face the first issue that Barack Obama likely would — namely, what to do when the Europeans fail to cooperate. McCain already believes that they will not (or cannot).

    Instead, McCain would have to answer another question, which ultimately is the same as Obama’s question: Where will the resources come from to keep forces in Iraq, manage the war in Afghanistan, involve Pakistanis in that conflict and contain Russia? In some sense, McCain has created a tougher political position for himself by casting all these issues in a moral light. But, in the Reagan tradition, a moral position has value only if it can be pursued, and pursuing those actions requires both moral commitment and Machiavellian virtue.

    Therefore, McCain will be pulled in two directions. First, like Obama, he would not be able to pursue his ends without a substantial budget increase or abandoning one or more theaters of operation. The rubber band just won’t stretch without reinforcements. Second, while those reinforcements are mustered — or in lieu of reinforcements — he will have to execute a complex series of tactical operations. This will involve holding the line in Iraq, creating a political framework for settlement in Afghanistan and scraping enough forces together to provide some pause to the Russians as they pressure their periphery.

    McCain’s foreign policy — like Obama’s — would devolve into complex tactics, where the devil is in the details, and the details will require constant attention.

    The Global Landscape and the Next President

    Ultimately, it is the global landscape that determines a president’s foreign policy choices, and the traditions presidents come from can guide them only so far. Whoever becomes president in January 2009 will face the same landscape and limited choices. The winner will require substantial virtue, and neither candidate should be judged on what he says now, since no one can anticipate either the details the winner will confront or the surprises the world will throw at him.

    We can describe the world. We can seek to divine the candidates’ intentions by looking at their political traditions. We can understand the intellectual and moral tensions they face. But in the end, we know no more about the virtue of these two men than anyone else. We do know that, given the current limits of U.S. power and the breadth of U.S. commitments, it will take a very clever and devious president to pursue the national interest, however that is defined.

  17. #17
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    18,577

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelius View Post
    Since no one read the thread I posted in the Political Academy I think i'll just graft it onto this one:

    The Obama Foreign Policy Stance
    Source




    The McCain Foregn Policy Stance
    Source
    Good stuff, but I will save to read later -- btw, I think this is a good example of when to use the spoiler tag (radioactive symbol)

  18. #18
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    18,577

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikelus Trento View Post
    Well, even with their well rounded team of advisers, let's say this happened....

    A US Navy destroyer just outside Venzuelan territorial waters picks up a call from an American charter fishing vessel. The American ship is trying to get into international waters as quickly as it can, being pursued rapidly by an aging but aggresive Venzuelan gunboat.

    The mayday calls from the American ship claim the Venz. ship suddenly attacked them, and they thought they were in international waters. but now know they are not. These people are getting very panicky because the Venz. ship is closing in and has fired a couple shots across the bow.

    In garbled Spanish (the Navy ship doesn't have a fluent Spanish speaker on board), the Americans have been able to determine that the Venz. "might" be claiming the innocent vessel is actually a drugrunner.

    This information is now in the hands of our next President.

    The way I see things unfolding is this.......

    John McCain: "Have those navy boys take that damn piece of pig gumboat down NOW!!!"

    Barack Obama: "Position the destroyer between our ship and the gunboat. Make it clear to the gunboat to break off or risk their destruction. Get me that Chavez guy on the phone!"
    This incident is resolved before ever reaching the President or he needs to get new cabinet secretaries not to mention a huge shake up in military chain of cammand.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    Can't believe you folks get your resources from, of all places, WIKI.


  20. #20

    Default Re: Is there significant difference between the candidates' proposed foreign policy?

    Caelius you do not make a point by copy-pasting a huge amount of text, which btw only confirms my OP.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •