Light Infantry and Precursor Weapons

[DimeBagHo]

There has been some dicussion of giving the 'prec' attribute to certain light infantry units. Likely candidates would include Thureophoroi, Hillmen, and Civic/Libyan Light Infantry. Giving these units the 'prec' attribute would prevent them from skirmishing.

Pro: (1) The AI would not be able to set these units to skirmish. These units are quite common so many battles come down to chasing enemy skirmishers all over the map. This is realistic enough, but not a lot of fun to play.

Athenogoras: One more pro: In defense AI is crippled because of the so called "foot missile bug". That is, foot skirmishers(and archers) dont fire if they are too close to the enemy. Removing this will improve AI.

Con: (1) The AI would make less efficient use of its ammo because it would be more likely to engage in melee before using it all up. (2) The player would find it harder to target specific units for missile fire. If you order a prec unit to attack it will fire one volley and then charge. If you set it to 'fire at will' and move it into range it will pick its own tagets. (3) The player would not be able to set these units to skirmish (personally I rarely find this useful, but perhaps others do?)

You can try this out for yourself, and see more of the technical details, here.

[Dom9127]

I think giving them the prec ability would be best, I rarely use them as skirmishers and it would probably help the Ai's use of these types of troops.

[Athenogoras]

I voted for removing the skirmish ability.
One more pro: In defense AI is crippled because of the so called "foot missile bug". That is, foot skirmishers(and archers) dont fire if they are too close to the enemy. Removing this will improve AI.

[Webba]

I vote for giving the prec ability a try as well. At its best it could help remove much of the annoyance from skirmisher spam, at its worst it will only lessen the versatility of the unit slightly.

[Barend]

I voted for removing the skirmish ability. I always use my Thureophoroi for weakening the enemy before they hit my main battleline, but also for close combat, but never in a pure skirmish fashion.
Only con I see in this plan, is that thureophoroi will be very similar to the Thorakitai.
And I have one question; what if you remove the skirmish ability from the Hillmen, is there still a eastern javelinmen-like soldier type? (Haven't played the eastern factions extensively...)

[Webba]

IIRC all the eastern factions bar Parthia have a peltast unit. I think in vanilla Hillmen didn't even have javelins anyway.

[Scutarii]

I voted for removing the ability. Skirmisher spam is a pain.... And I've never actually used Thureopheuroi as skirmishers anyway, they're like lighter Thorikitai for me.

[CaesarVincens]

I agree, if people want skirmishers, there are peltasts for nearly every faction. Though I wouldn't change hillmen; those are fine, and some heavier skirmishers can be nice now and then.

[Spartan198]

As long as archers and peltasts are uneffected by the change, I'm indifferent.

I use Thureophoroi and Thorakitai in a similar fashion as Legionary Cohorts.

[atraps]

I voted to keep skirmish ability. Yes, It would be nice to see skirmishing gone, but it seems its only possible to do this with the "prec" ability. To me the "prec" ability is even more annoying then the skirmish ability.

First of all the AI handles the "prec" ability very poorly. It will charge into combat then once in combat it will try to fire missiles. This isnt such a big deal with units which have small amounts of ammo like the Roman legions, but with units which have lots of ammo like the Thureophoroi its gonna become problematic. Second, like Dime said, it will become a nuisance to the player when they try to target individual units, which for the most part, is the whole point of javelin units.

If we find a way other then the "prec" ability then im all for it.

[DimeBagHo]

Barend: In most cases it would be possible to make the faction and AOR versions of units different, though I'd prefer not to.

atraps: Not being able to target specific units would be a pain in some cases, like when you really need to take down some elephants for example. The behavior of prec units in combat can also be a little odd at times, but I don't think it's that big a deal.

If the prec attribute is added to these units then they will be switched to the 'skirmisher' class. One effect of using this class is that the AI is much more likely to use up ammo before engaging in combat.

I will be doing more tests myself, but it would be very useful to get more feedback about the behavior of skirmisher/prec units in combat. Stuff that would be useful to know: (1) How well do they use available ammo; (2) How often do they fire point-blank vollies (i.e. firing when already engaged in melee); (3) How do they behave under fire - do they fire back or charge in?

[Athenogoras]

Only tested in custom-battles as of yet. Alex-exe. version 5.8.1 with my formations:
1. They have spent all ammo in every battle(both AI-controlled)
2. Often. Usually when they make contact
3. They dont speard out. Fire back if superior melee-foe, charge if inferior(peltast type). The only exception is against ellies, but that has nothing to do with the precursor-attribute. because of their big bonus versus elephants they think they can beat them in melee and hence charges. Even peltasts do this.

[Barend]

As CeasarVincens said; keeping the Hillmen a skirmisher unit might be a good idea, because they are found in all the eastern world (trainable at the auxiliary barracks). It gives some extra variety to the roster.
Is it possible to remove the skirmish ability in the faction-only units (like the Thureophoroi, Civic Infantry) and keep this ability in the AOR-units? I don't know what the impact would be on AI-behavior.

[Balikedes]

Oops, accidentally hit the second option...meant the first one....

[Mathais]

Well am down with the prec ability I hate chasing after units in battle where i triple the speed and walk away when I don have calvery to chase them down with. I dont care if the units dont use all there arrows or wathever as long as I can move on in a battle.

[Unknown Soldier]

I always set skirmish off on the units when they deploy with it on. I use them like Roman infantry anyway. In the battle line with fire at will set on.

[Stilgar CG]

Well, I voted for removing the ability. Sadly, skirmish ability just does not work well, and for light infantry in particular. It is simply unrealistic that in their attempt to keep their distance to skirmish, corresponding units simply spread around the battlefield.
Perhaps, skirmish ability should be left for merc peltasts, which can be hired directly (not via auxiliary barracks!). You know, to pay our respect to the history of this game .
Btw, very interesting exchange of ideas in this thread, as well as in thread by Athenogoras.