Libertarians - McCain or Obama

[WrathofTulkas]

Okay this is for all you Libertarians on the forums.

Are you voting for either McCain or Obama? Barr?

I know Barr won't be elected so I need to vote for the lesser of two evils/

Obama wants Big Government - Socialism
McCain wants to continues the war

I'm thinking McCain is less evil, b/c Obama even admits he wants to escalate the war in Afghanistan, and I think everyone knows US troops will be in Iraq for years to come

Libertarians discuss what is more important for you - Economic Freedom, No Government Social Programs (which dont work)
or More personal freedom (for yourself and others)

[roy34543]

From a liberterian point of view mccain pretty much has all the benefits doesnt he?Im not even sure if obama supports free trade and i think he wants to renegotiate the north america free trade agreement.

[WrathofTulkas]

Economically he sure sounds hell of a lot better but personal freedoms both and their pros and cons
Like gun control & abortion

[Mikelus Trento]

Last time I checked folks didn't like their phones bugged, internet searched, or any of a number of changes to our Constitutional Rights from the "Patriot" Act, all occuring with an "R" in charge. And McCain also wears that brand.

[Shi Huangdi]

Last time I checked folks didn't like their phones bugged, internet searched, or any of a number of changes to our Constitutional Rights from the "Patriot" Act, all occuring with an "R" in charge. And McCain also wears that brand.

I don't understand why liberals keep harping on the Patriot Act when they have done more to stifle liberty than anyone else. From the so-called "fairness doctrine", to environmental regulations, to equal opportunity and reverse discrimination, to gun control--liberals have done more to steal our freedoms than any Republican would ever even consider.

And Rush is absolutely right. The US government has ignored the Constitution time and again, giving powers to the federal government that were never intended for it. As the Tenth Amendment says:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

[MathiasOfAthens]

I agree with Trento Libertarians is basically more liberty not less and voting for McCain is like a chicken voting for Col. Saunders. So if a libertarian is blind enough to vote for McCain then they prob not a libertarian.
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[Nietzsche]

I agree with Trento Libertarians is basically more liberty not less and voting for McCain is like a chicken voting for Col. Saunders. So if a libertarian is blind enough to vote for McCain then they prob not a libertarian.

Sums it all up quite nicely. As a libertarian, I am horrified by both candidates. While I appreciate Obama's liberal social views (even if I disagree with their enforcement by a central government), his economics are a plain disaster. He would enlarge the role of government in nearly every sector. Which has proven not to work time after time, after time, after time. I can't comment on his international agenda because he remains largely ambiguous. He can spew some "let's repair relationships" rhetoric all day long but until he gets in office and becomes privy to the details of our strategic position he won't be able to completely define his views at all.

McCain offers no real alternative. He doesn't appear ready to end the financial disaster that is the gulf war. Both candidates supported the ludicrous bail-out. He has as many plans for government money as Obama does and none of the liberal social ideals. What people fail to understand is you can't have a liberal social policy without a fiscally responsible government. Private property and private enterprise are the essence of a free democratic system. As you hedge in on both with higher taxes and more interventionist policies freedoms start becoming curtailed to the point where you no longer have the choices available you once had. The Patriot Act is a perfect example of such a policy.

Don't you see how "Big Government" has become a scarecrow ?
While it may have been a legitimate issue in 18th century France it is hard to believe that people like you still accuse the democrats of violating their freedoms in face of a major economic crisis caused by a lack of regulations in the financial sector. It is delusional to believe that minimal government automatical leads to a maximum of personal freedom and welfare.
If we focus on civil liberties and values instead of economic ones do you still belief it's the Republicans and McCain who are the lesser of two evils ? Which party's leadership has constantly violated civil rights and liberties since 2001 ? Who is right now listening to your phone calls and reading your E-Mails, who introduced and defended torture as legitimate methode to get "informations" ?

If you would be honest and consequent you would not fear the Democrats which may increase your tax burden but the Republicans which intrude into your very private sphere.

While it is true sir that the Bush presidency has damaged personal liberties. I don't consider him a Republican at all. He's big government and pro interventionist. He has failed to uphold rights of citizens, provide fair and speedy trial, and introduced fiscal measures that will likely be the ruin of us for a long time to come. None of which suggests any kind of government, financial, or social conservatism. He is hated by his party for that reason. And hated by the rest for simply being a "Republican." I wonder how everyone would react if he were a democrat instead? Because honestly, fiscally and internationally his behavior isn't much different than Wilson.

[SorelusImperion]

I wonder how everyone would react if he were a democrat instead? Because honestly, fiscally and internationally his behavior isn't much different than Wilson

Wilson is widely critiziced as well. Contrary to Bush though Wilson did inot nfringe upon civil liberties and seems to have been an honest man who just had a misguided opinion regarding foreign policy. Though his decision to support the Triple Entente was (at least in my opinion) probably a mistake he seems to have the interest of not only America but the world at heart of wich his initiative to found the League of Nations is a good indicator.
Bush on the other hand is either a complete idiot or the worst kind of hypocrite and you can be sure that if he would be Democrat it would not have changed anything regarding how he and his party would be percieved by the public.

In the end it will be a choice for the Libertarians which issues are more important. It is some kind of a moral test for them. Do they prefer the $ in their wallets or their civil rights. Any upstanding and moral person would choose the civil rights and try to compromise on the economy.

[roy34543]

With a democratic congress? Somehow i dont think voting for mccain will reduce your liberties simply because the democrats wont let him. But then thats a pretty good argument for they wont actually let him do anything.

[Rush Limbaugh]

Barr

And why are non libertarians speaking for us?

Obama is the antithisis of a libertarian. Hes a socialist pure and simple.

[MathiasOfAthens]

And what is a conservative to a Libertarian Rush?
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[Rush Limbaugh]

Less government.., Thats not Obama thats for sure.

Thats Libertarianism 101

[mongrel]

Less government.., Thats not Obama thats for sure.

Thats Libertarianism 101

Has there been less government over the less 8 years?

[Rush Limbaugh]

Do I support republicans or Bush? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Rhinosaur]

Do I support republicans or Bush? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Why do you support Republicans then?

[Legio XII]

Do I support republicans or Bush? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Which is why, even though we've argued before, I respect you, my fellow libertarian.

But to address the thread topic, I would say that I am going for Obama, as Bob Barr is not on the ballot in North Carolina. Though Obama would increase the size of the government, I agree with his positions on social freedoms, the war, and the fact that his running mate is competent and capable of running the country were he to be removed for whatever reason.

The same could not be said for McCain on the last point. Sarah Palin is so incredibly stupid that I am genuinely afraid for the fate of America should McCain finally gain enough sensation in his body to feel the icy grip of death and she take over.

And, since I refuse not to vote, it seems I must pick the lesser of the two evils....again.:hmmm:

[roy34543]

Its pretty iniqiutious to say "over the last 8 years bla bla bla so i cant vote mccain" It would almost be justified for mccain to go and shoot bush in the head just to make it clear theyre not the same person. No offense but even children can see that mccain and bush have different policies and that obama has a lot of shared policies with bush . Republicans history does not span over 8 years either. If im not mistaken lots of people like reagon and nixon were republican.

[GuineaPig]

Its pretty iniqiutious to say "over the last 8 years bla bla bla so i cant vote mccain" It would almost be justified for mccain to go and shoot bush in the head just to make it clear theyre not the same person. No offense but even children can see that mccain and bush have different policies and that obama has a lot of shared policies with bush . Republicans history does not span over 8 years either. If im not mistaken lots of people like reagon and nixon were republican.

Why would bringing up two other terrible presidents prove your point? Nixon was corrupt and Reagan killed financial conservatism, the only thing Republicans had going for them in my opinion.

[Last Roman]

Its pretty iniqiutious to say "over the last 8 years bla bla bla so i cant vote mccain"

except that McCain supported a lot of the stuff happening over the last 8 years.

[roy34543]

Why would bringing up two other terrible presidents prove your point? Nixon was corrupt and Reagan killed financial conservatism, the only thing Republicans had going for them in my opinion.

It wasnt the point, i dont really know either of their histories well enough to decide if theyre good or bad, though my understanding is both of them were ultimatly good. its just that "the last 8 years" dont somehow define republicans. The last 8 years define republicans about as much as any other years the republicans were in power were, and theyre pretty diverse and nothing like those of bushes reign.