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  1. #1

    Default France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    In secular France, it is illegal for hotel owners to turn away women wearing Muslim headscarves but OK to ban those wearing head-to-toe burqas from state-sponsored French language classes.

    Two recent decisions have demonstrated how tough and touchy it is to legislate religious expression in a country that has a long-standing separation between church and state — and an increasingly multicultural society with a growing Muslim population.

    "Religious freedom is not absolute," the head of France's government anti-discrimination agency, Louis Schweitzer, said in an interview with the Catholic daily La Croix, published Thursday. He said authorities are trying to find "the most reasonable compromise."

    His agency ruled last month that it was acceptable to ban women wearing the burqa and niqab — billowing clothes that cover the body and face worn by pious Muslim women — from state-sponsored French language classes for immigrants.

    Under French law, such classes are sometimes required in order to apply for French residency or citizenship.


    Earlier this year, a national agency responsible for dealing with new immigrants complained that the presence of the veiled women "hinders the proper functioning" of the language classes and asked the anti-discimination agency, known as Halde, to examine the matter.

    In its Sept. 15 decision, Halde called the burqa a symbol of "female submission that goes beyond its religious meaning" and said it is "not unreasonable, for public security requirements ... or the protection of civil liberties" to bar it from the publicly funded language classrooms.

    Schweitzer said the decision came down to a practical question: Language teachers cannot provide proper phonetic instruction without seeing their students' faces.

    The National Federation of French Muslims condemned the decision.

    "I'm against bundling women up but I am also against those who prevent other people for learning," spokesman Elbekkay Merzak said in a telephone interview. "How can you bar someone from getting something so fundamental as language instruction?"

    A French appeals court ruling this week showed that limits on the veil can only go so far.

    On Wednesday, the appeals court in the northeastern city of Nancy confirmed a decision against the owner of a bed and breakfast inn who refused to board two veiled women. The court fined inn-owner Yvette Truchelut $6,000 over the 2007 incident.

    Several decisions in recent years have sought to define how much religious expression is acceptable in France's public realm.

    A controversial 2003 law banned students from wearing apparel with religious connotations, like the Muslim headscarf, Jewish skull cap and large Christian crosses, in public schools.

    Some critics complained that the law — which allows for discreet religious signs, like small crosses — specifically targeted Muslims. France has an estimated 5 million Muslims — the largest such population in Western Europe.

    Many of those are immigrants from former colonies in North Africa. The state-sponsored language classes are part of revamped immigration procedures aimed at attracting better-skilled workers and better integrating newcomers. Conservative President Nicolas Sarkozy was elected last year in part on pledges to tackle illegal immigration.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/religio...urqa-ban_N.htm


    AS FOR MY OPINION: some immigrant women should be allowed to maintain their burqas cuz if they take them off french guys will be like
    "Merde alors!, Oh snap!!put eet back on!!"...

  2. #2
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Pivra View Post

    AS FOR MY OPINION: some immigrant women should be allowed to maintain their burqas cuz if they take them off french guys will be like
    "Merde alors!, Oh snap!!put eet back on!!"...
    "oh snap" is an americanism, not a frenchism. you're collquiallism is misleading and inaccurrate.




  3. #3
    Winter's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Let's keep the new immigrants from learning French language, and thereby French culture, because we don't like their traditional clothing? Excellent idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jeb View Post
    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


  4. #4

    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    They do it rightfully. Wearing a burqa is uncommon except among the fiercest fanatics; besides it might trouble anyone trying to listen, or see anything. I don't know it exactly but having a dress covering your whole body like that might have such effects.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  5. #5
    Winter's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire le Philosophe View Post
    They do it rightfully. Wearing a burqa is uncommon except among the fiercest fanatics; besides it might trouble anyone trying to listen, or see anything. I don't know it exactly but having a dress covering your whole body like that might have such effects.
    I've sen several women in burqas who, believe it or not, did not detonate themselves or scream "allahu akbar!" every few minutes. Of course, they could have been thinking "death to America" underneath it, but they weren't causing a fuss.

    I'm not saying I agree with a religion that makes women wear these, but if these women aren't doing anything wrong to begin with, why play culture police and force them to abandon their religious clothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jeb View Post
    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


  6. #6

    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Heh, there's a simple solution to all this.

    BAN THE FRENCH LANGUAGE.

    From the entire earth.

  7. #7

    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Quote Originally Posted by dwringer View Post
    Heh, there's a simple solution to all this.

    BAN THE FRENCH LANGUAGE.

    From the entire earth.

    booo.... LOL, I think that during a test, students can cheat underneath the blue and innocent burqas...

  8. #8

    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    A Turkish official once compared the Hijab (head cover) in Turkey to the black and brown shirts of the fascists in Germany and Italy, since it often shows their political affiliation, women who don't wear hijab, are often in favour of secularist parties, whereas women who wear hijab are more inclined to favour islamist parties. I'd say that's the case outside of Turkey sometimes, but especially the case with the niqab (face covering) or burqa, it's not only a religious statement, but a political one. Whether or not it should be banned is something that should be debated at the high level. But, there's no question as to what it symbolizes and represents: religious fanaticism.

    It just so happens that in Canada, and in the West in general, people who cover their face usually rob or kill us.
    Last edited by Gauvin; October 17, 2008 at 06:35 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauvin View Post
    but especially the case with the niqab (face covering) or burqa, it's not only a religious statement, but a political one.
    You give the veil too much credit; you treat it with a reverence that it does not deserve.

    The wearing of the veil does not make a religous statement at all. There is absolutely nothing in the Koran that says a woman must cover her face when in public. It is simply a tradition which arose from Muslim men wanting to have better control of their woman.

    It is a cultural tradition rather than a religous one.
    Last edited by Roman Rapper; October 17, 2008 at 08:35 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Down with the Burqa! But on the other hand I support freedom of expression. So what the hell ..


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

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  11. #11
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    I support freedom of expression, freedom of religion, and I vehemently and violently despise any kind of school dress codes.

    So you can kinda infer where I stand on this event.

  12. #12
    Sven788's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Bann the Burqa!





  13. #13
    Phalanx300's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sven788 View Post
    Bann the Burqa!
    I'm with you there!

  14. #14

    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Freedom of expression yeah but....there are dress requirements for alot of things especially school related (even if its just a language class). So unless France attempt to ban the dress everywhere I think they are perfectly right to ban its usage in specific areas. Reminds me a bit of the woman in florida who sued because she was denied a drivers licenses because she wouldnt remove her veil.

  15. #15

    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Thank heavens for the Catholic church, which is more concerned with giving Muslim kids an education rather than making empty political statements.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/...pe/schools.php
    Last edited by mongrel; October 18, 2008 at 05:32 AM.
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  16. #16
    Darsh's Avatar Maréchal de l'Empire
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    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    The concept of Laïcité:

    Laïcité (pronounced [la.i.siˈte]) is the French concept of a secular society, connoting the absence of religious involvement in government affairs as well as absence of government involvement in religious affairs [1] [2]. Although, during the twentieth century, it evolved to mean equal treatment of all religions, more restrictive interpretaiton of the term is being witnessed since 2004[3]. It is thought that no English word precisely captures the exact meaning of laïcité although it is sometimes rendered in English as "laicity" or "laicism". Simplistically it is rendered with a paraphrase as the principle of separation of church (or religion) and state. Etymologically, laïcité comes from the Greek λαϊκός (laïkós "of the people", "layman"). A believer and promoter of 'laïcité' is a 'laic' who may not be an atheist [4] [5].
    Proponents assert laïcité is based on respect for freedom of thought and freedom of religion. Thus the absence of a state religion, and the subsequent separation of the state and Church, is considered a prerequisite for such freedom of thought. Laïcité is thus distinct from anti-clericalism, which actively opposes the influence of religion and the clergy. Laïcité relies on the division between private life, where adherents believe religion belongs, and the public sphere, in which each individual, adherents believe, should appear as a simple citizen equal to all other citizens, devoid of ethnic, religious or other particularities. According to this conception, the government must refrain from taking positions on religious doctrine and only consider religious subjects for their practical consequences on inhabitants' lives.

    Supporters argue that Laïcité by itself does not necessarily imply any hostility of the government with respect to religion. It is best described as a belief that government and political issues should be kept separate from religious organizations and religious issues (as long as the latter do not have notable social consequences). This is meant to protect both the government from any possible interference from religious organizations, and to protect the religious organization from political quarrels and controversies.

    Critics of laïcité argue that it is a disguised form of anti-clericalism and individual right to religious expression, and that, instead of promoting freedom of thought and freedom of religion, it prevents the believer from observing his or her religion.

    In Europe today, the controversy often centers around banning of wearing hijab, taxpayers' rights to religious choice in education services and restrictions placed on the construction of new mosques. In the United States, it centers around school prayer, creationism and related issues.

    Another critique is that, in countries historically dominated by one religious tradition, officially avoiding taking any positions on religious matters favors the dominant religious tradition of the relevant country. They point out that even in the current French Fifth Republic (1958–), school holidays follow the Christian liturgical year. However, the Minister of Education has responded to this criticism by giving leave to students for important holidays of their specific religions, and food menus served in secondary schools pay particular attention to ensuring that each religious observer may respect his religion's specific restrictions concerning diets.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9

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  17. #17

    Default Re: France bans immigrants wearing burqas in state language classes

    Yes, let's make it difficult for them to attend state sponsored activities that would help them assimilate. After all, our culture is massively superior to theirs.

    ...

    Honestly. This is a step backward for those wanting to see assimilation from the Muslim population.

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